Episode 10: There Will Be Leeches
Episode Summary
In their final episode of Season 1, the guys drill down into the urtext of the Leech Podcast: 2007’s There Will Be Blood. Warning: there will be DRAINAGE!!
Episode Notes
After a very personal Leech Anatomy 101 segment (2:01), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into There Will Be Blood’s leechiest themes (6:42), scenes (14:59), and characters (27:00). To get some rel...
Transcript
Evan 00:28
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm Evan Cate, and I'm joined as always by my two favorite leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and Banks, Clark. Hey guys. [Hey hey. Good to be here.] The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you, but also stick with you. They may even be good for you, like a little baby beach. Today we will be discussing the leechy, leechy goodness of Paul Thomas Anderson's 2007 film, There Will Be Blood. It stars Daniel Day Lewis in an Oscar-winning performance, as well as Paul Dano and a number of other talented actors. We'll dive more into this film very soon, discussing its leechy themes and scenes and characters and much, much more. But before we do that, we want to remind you that we are always looking to expand our pond. So please reach out to us on Twitter @leechpodcast, on Instagram: theleechpodcast. And you can also find us on our website, www.theleechpodcast.com. We've now reached that time in the show where we need to learn more about leeches. Aaron, will you teach us?
Aaron 01:43
Teach us about the leeches? Yes, I will. Now Evan, today I'm not going to talk about the anatomy of leeches actually. Instead I'd like to talk about the anatomy of memory.
Banks 01:56
That's a surprise. [Gosh, okay.]
Aaron 02:01
So. So this is a movie. It's a movie about -- that involves some murders. And I want to tell you about the first time in my life that I killed something. [Oh no. I don't think I'm ready for this.] When I was in grad school -- and I killed something a long time before grad school, by the way -- I took a memoir, a memoir writing class, where I had to delve into my childhood memories. And it brought me back to my elementary school years when I lived in Kentucky by a little creek, where we would catch like crayfish and frogs and there were turtles and snakes in there. But the most memorable day, and actually, I went back and read part of the memoir I'd written -- and this is in 2012 - the most memorable day that I wrote about the creek was when we discovered a leech. And it was an enormous leech, three or four inches long and about an inch wide, huge granddaddy leech. And it was just sunning itself on a rock amid the sun and the shade. And we took sticks and began prodding at the leech, and it was like wriggling and squirming on the rock and we were kind of pushing into its skin until finally we pierced the leech's skin. It's like dark green brown skin that kind of bubbles open [wow] -- there's like this green bile and red blood in there. We don't know, does the blood belong to the leech? Or did it take it from something else? There's this theme of like the leech's own extraction and the way that we're taking its life out of it. And I'm here to confess to you guys that the first creature I ever killed in my life was a leech. [Wow. Oh, man.]
Evan 03:34
Thank you for that visceral description. And for sharing that with us.
Banks 03:38
Worthy of the pod. That was worthy of the pod there.
Aaron 03:41
I was saving this story for the last episode of the season. [Oh, man.]
Evan 03:47
Wow, thank you for sharing that. I feel honored. Question mark.
Aaron 03:51
Give me the bloody, Eli.
Evan 03:52
Give me the blood, Aaron. Well, that's a great segue. Banks, what happened in this movie?
Banks 04:00
A few things. And we're going to talk about those few things. So, just so you know, spoiler warning coming up. If you haven't seen it, watch it. It's well worth your time. A smaller trigger warning for this one. This is a movie that definitely has murder. Guess what? There is blood. They warned you in the title. Other than that, really awesome movie, worth your time. Let's dive in. Because this is a great movie. It pulls together lots of things from all the different movies we've been watching, and I'll try to talk just briefly about it, even though there's so many characters, so many overlaps with all these things that we've had. So, you know, one way to think about this is this is the story of an oilman, of Daniel Plainview, played by Daniel Day Lewis. And this is a man who goes out to California to find oil and strikes it. And then starts to build his empire, and he has his son that he brings with him and it's like a family business. He uses his son as part of a sales pitch and then he builds his empire and finds "an ocean of oil." And from there, he builds a pipeline and finds a brother who ends up not being his brother. And in the end, the movie ends with him being a success. And the kind of success that makes you ask, Is the success? And him disavowing pretty much everyone in his family, everyone that he's loved, including saying that his son actually isn't his son at all -- he just found him and just decided to pretty much steal him to be his, part of his sales pitch. You could say this is a story about the American West. It's a gold rush. It's an oil rush. It's about what it means to be a part of an American Dream for this guy who is pursuing it relentlessly. Kind of reminds me a little bit of a father from Parasite, a little bit, like he breaks his leg and is just like happy as can be on the like, on the floor, because he found oil, kind of like the father making those like pizza boxes, right? And like, just like doesn't even, doesn't even care. In the end it's a story about like, human condition. It has to do with what it means for like greed to pursue people, to make promises that are just never going to be fulfilled -- building schools that aren't made. You know, this is a family business -- that it isn't. It's, he's in a pursuit of success. And at the end of the movie, he's sitting there shooting art with a shotgun across his huge house and killing people with bowling pins in his basement. [Yeah!] You know, success never looked so ugly. And it is a brutal movie that is made with an incredible artfulness. And there's blood. There is blood - spoilers!
Evan 06:42
Yes, there is blood. Banks, thank you for the summary. I think you've also transitioned us into some themes already. So we're going to talk about leechy themes in this film. And I will start us off with a homonym. I want to talk about profit and profits. [Ohhh.] I want to, I want to focus on Daniel Plainview as the man of profit. And Eli Sunday as the prophet of men? Money? I don't know.
Banks 07:16
He's, he's prophesying a little bit. I'll tell you that.
Aaron 07:20
Profiteering and prophesying.
Evan 07:22
That's right. And I think, you know, all jokes aside, the dichotomy and the connections between these two men run throughout this film. And so I'm thinking about three showdowns between the two men. The first one, Daniel clearly wins: he slaps Eli, shoves his face in the oil. The second one, Eli clearly wins: he slaps Daniel and baptizes him. And in the third, Daniel again slaps Eli, humiliates him in many, many ways, forces him to blaspheme and then kills him. Now we're gonna dive into all of those scenes and much more, I'm sure, but for me, it's the ways in which both of them are drawn to profit. Eli has to rely on Daniel's oil money to build his church, for example. Daniel also needs the blessing of this preacher for his oil empire to grow and expand. And so the profit motive and the so-called prophet of God, together in these two men -- always opposed but also reflecting each other -- that's my theme.
Aaron 08:32
Yeah, I don't think there's any moment in this film where religion and business really separate from one another. They're always held so tightly together. For me the thing that I want to talk about, I'm... I mean, we joked we joked a couple of weeks ago when we talked about Prospect, which is a movie about this, kind of about the West and kind of about the Gold Rush, here we are at the oil rush. And I was talking then about the idea of plunder. Well, now I did want to talk about extraction, extraction. Literally putting the straw, putting the proboscis into the earth and sucking the blood out of it.
Banks 09:08
Into the milkshake.
Aaron 09:11
"My proboscis is in your milkshake!"
Evan 09:18
Foul.
Aaron 09:20
But I'm drawn to this moment. Speaking of your theme, though, speaking of your theme, I'm drawn to the moment where Daniel's, he's had his first well and they've got the huge drill bit, and they've cranked it up, cranked it up. And they're about to let gravity take over, send the huge heavy bit. It's gonna pierce right into the hole. And I mean, it's incredibly phallic. It is a very sexual image of kind of piercing the earth and letting all of its life spill out -- and oh my gracious. And there's a moment where they let the phallus -- I mean, the drill bit -- go down the hole. They crank it back out and it's covered with oil and Daniel just slathers his hand in it. And I'm like, the glee and the kind of weird masculine display. It's about business. It's about religion too, because they take the oil and they anoint HW's forehead with it. The oil of anointing indeed indeed. [From dust to dust.] From dust to dust. Ooo, from oil to oil. And so that theme of extraction, like piercing and pulling out the life of the earth, I'm right there again.
Banks 10:28
That's, it's a powerful theme. I mean, it's the way he like holds his hand up and his hand is black with the blood of the earth. Right? [Good gracious.] Oof, that's not my theme, though. I think my theme, the leechy theme of this, I think it is leechy in every way, is this is... I see the themes of promises and lies. [Ohhhh.] I think that those are, those in some ways just like encompass the same coin. This idea, the promise, the promise of, "we're gonna build schools, and everyone's gonna have bread, right" [Bread!] "I hope you don't mind me saying..." [Bread, right?] "They're gonna make the church building, there is gonna be a road that goes straight to the church. "It'll be the first place that it goes." And then the promise that this is a family business, the promise that HW is a son, the promise that Henry is a brother, the promise that success is going to bring happiness and the pipeline is going to -- it's all these promises, and they're all filled with lies. And they just, there's this hunger that all of us have, like this idea of a hope. And what's leechy about that promises that lie to you is they leech onto the hope: they stick on you and they're just stealing from you the whole time. They're leeching off of you, they're taking your money, they're taking your land, they're taking the oil from under you with their Slurpee straw of milkshake doom. And drainage happens, man. [Drainage!!]
Evan 12:08
Not seepage.
Banks 12:09
Drainage! And it's just. I just think that it's incredibly leechy and it's pervasive. And it just for me like that's so -- it's so easy for me to believe the promises, to hope in those promises myself, to hope in him, to hope in Eli, to hope that actually this little town in the middle of nowhere is actually going to have a future. Nope, it's just gonna get sucked dry as the desert.
Aaron 12:36
I think, here's what's interesting to me is that Daniel Plainview is so successful because he knows the dialect of American promise. [Oh!] He knows how to speak the language of promise in the American tongue. The mother tongue. He knows to talk about family. He knows to talk about education. He knows to talk about human dignities and decencies that all people deserve. He paints this kind of democratic world, when he has no intention of creating a democratic world. He wants no competitors, he is a tyrant. And so, the tyrant who speaks and the democratic promise -- I'm, I'm right there with you. I'm loving this. I'm loving this.
Evan 13:17
Yeah, if I could just add one little bit. I think we should really note the craft of Paul Thomas Anderson and the crew that that juxtapose the words of like this oil man speech that Banks referenced with these images of all men, workers, coming. So he's saying, we're gonna have families, we're gonna have children -- but there's not a single woman that comes into these communities, right? So you see the hollowness of the promise visually, even as bodies -- as he's telling the words, right? And then the other image that does this is, once he finishes "I'm the oil man" speech, the camera actually goes back to the Sunday ranch and it goes through, literally through, that like carport area that's in between their home and barn. It goes through that space. And on the other side are the workers' quarters there. The first oil well is there. It's literally through their ranch that Daniel Plainview's empire will come, and in the background, there is Eli Sunday's church choir singing. It holds it all together visually and audibly. I mean, it's just perfectly crafted.
Aaron 14:21
Oh man, he's gonna steamroll directly through everything that they hold dear: family, community, etc. [Indeed.]
Evan 14:32
That reminds me of one more detail in this movie. The American promise, dialect and all that. I feel like there's got to be significance in that Eli Sunday is from Little Boston. I feel like they're like the early Puritans in the "wilderness," who were very religious, but then sell out to Mammon. Like, it is the story of America and the American West in so many ways.
Banks 14:56
Wow, that's an amazing connection. That makes so much sense.
Evan 14:59
Aaron, is there a, is there a scene that drives some of this home for you? Or a scene that is like particularly leechy?
Aaron 15:04
Hmm, yes, yes. I think for me, I am really stuck on some of the leechy scenes that have to do with HW, his son. But I, I'm coming to the scene that -- one of the scenes you brought up, Evan -- which is the first major showdown between Daniel and Eli. Where Eli has come to say, hey, you made a promise, pay up money for the church. And this scene comes right after the oil explodes and HW is deafened, loses his hearing. And there's a way in which those men both need each other so much in this scene. Why does Daniel Plainview slap Eli? He wants him to heal HW. He wants him to make good on the fact that he's supposedly a healer. Because he's gone into that church and he's seen the performance. He's seen the performance of healing: "Get out of here ghost, get out of here, ghost!" Where Eli supposedly heals the arthritic woman. Anyway. But there's a there's a way in which they -- Eli wants money, and Daniel wants healing. And it becomes a religious moment of this sort of like, the oil, mud baptism, where they baptize each other. And I'm going to follow up on something you said about profit and profit. Someone I was looking at. I was watching the trailer for There Will Be Blood and ran into the comment section. Someone brought up this quote that I had to trace back to its source. I had to trace this quote back to its source. It says, "Business is religion. And religion is business." I'm gonna say it one more time: "Business is religion. And religion is business." And this is coming from a pastor from 1902. I traced this back to its source: Maltbie Babcock, this weird Presbyterian pastor from the Northeast, who's got this kind of Protestant work ethic. [Yeah.] Right, where religion and business are intertwined and his 1902 "Thoughts for Everyday Living." [Oh.] And at this moment... In the Sunday column next to "Sunday casseroles." And at this moment, I'm watching this baptism happen, where Eli is being baptized by the baptism of business. And later, Daniel will be baptized into religion.
Banks 17:43
Man. The whole like theme of Eli is... and like ugh... and Daniel Plainview. It's just like their relationship is just this maelstrom of just unforgettable things you want to forget. But for me, you know, the scene -- I think Daniel Plainview put it best: and that's the, "It's one damn hell of a show!" And that is, you know, the entire movie opens with, you know, Daniel Day Lewis's character mining, right, in the earth. And we never actually get to meet sort of his counterpart until one scene where we get to see Eli Sunday preach. And that's when we actually get to see, Oh, this is actually a powerful character in his own way. Not a desirable way, but a powerful way. We get to see this guy just laying into a sermon and a) I just think it's hilarious because it's a sermon about "a gentle whisper." He's gonna whisper the pain away into this woman's arthritic hands and, you know, all of us were in Div school at some point, so we all like have our backgrounds in this. But he's whispering into the fingers. Then of course by the end, he's like screaming at a ghost. It's like oh, well, there goes that "gentle whisper." [Oh, yeah.] Typical, typical like pastor, right? Never actually listened to his own sermon. And so like, it's this whole thing. And then at the end, there's like the, everyone's like, thank you for that. Thank you for that. So Daniel Plainview is just like, Yeah, what the hell? I'm getting out of here. This is weird as hell. He just says, "Well, that's one hell of a show." Because he could just see like the screaming, this performance. And the reason why it sticks with me is that aspect of his character is, it's the skeleton of it. Eli Sunday's character is just that performance the whole way through. And just as, you know, if Daniel Plainview knows the dialect of American promise, than perhaps Eli Sunday knows the dialect of American faith.
Aaron 19:27
Heeeyyy. Mm hmm. Brother, brother, brother, brother, brother. Yes. They are both preachers. [Yes.] And they, they speak a big game. They speak a big game about salvation. [It's true.] Different kinds of salvation.
Evan 20:29
Yeah. And let me just build on that a little bit. Because I think my scene, my leechy scene, is the second showdown. It's the baptism of Daniel Plainview at the church. [All these scene. the church, man, the church.] Yeah, you're right. It's on brand. All of us are Div school people, so I think that maybe we're particularly attuned to it. But I... [We know we are.] Yeah. I just think that scene -- on the one hand, I mean, in context, Daniel is going to church and confessing that he's a sinner so that he can get the land that he needs to build his pipeline. Okay, so it's utterly mechanical, cynical business motive. And yet, in that scene, I think, in a moment, there is a real confession that happens, where Daniel admits that he has abandoned his son -- his son who has become deaf, and who he has sent to a school because Daniel was incapable of raising him well. And it's cynical and Daniel, he's suspicious, and then something snaps in him, and he begins to yell louder and louder. This confession. And I think it's a testament to Daniel Day Lewis's performance that, that we believe this, because he's been utterly calculating this whole time. And yet, he has this very human moment. And I had this, is he actually going to change? Is something really going to happen here? That question pops into my head, right, for that instant. And then under his breath, afterwards, he says, "There is a pipeline." So it's right back with the cynicism. And yet I want, what is leechy about it for me is that I actually think that moment of confession is real on one level. And yet he then returns back to who he really is.
Banks 22:15
But why is that moment so relieving when he says that? Because it's relieving, because it does totally like subvert the idea that he's gonna change. And yet, it's still relieving somehow. Is it because the scene is so painful? Is it because he returns to what is familiar to us as a character? I don't know. But every... And then it's like, is it because it's funny? It just lets us laugh after that really heavy scene? There's like something relieving about him saying that at the end.
Evan 22:41
Yeah, I think for me, part of it is that, if he were to truly confess to Eli, then he would be under Eli's authority. And I think Eli is just as much a charlatan as he is. And so it's like, I'm glad that you're confessing because you have done wrong. And yet, I don't want you to become a minion of Eli, either.
Aaron 22:57
I think it's interesting to think about where that scene falls in the structure of the movie because he does actually have crimes to confess at that point. And he doesn't, he doesn't confess the crime that he just committed, which was murdering the imposter who pretended to be his brother. He murdered that person -- shot him in cold blood. And he confesses to what is almost a deeper crime. [Yeah.] At least within the substructure of the movie. [Yeah, yeah.] The abandonment of HW is the fundamental crime and one that ultimately he'll never recover from.
Banks 23:37
Yeah, and there's something, there's an honesty to that confession, too. Like you can tell how much he hates having to say it and... [It's true.] When he says, "my boy," I mean, jeez, that just hurts. That hurts everyone who watches it.
Aaron 23:48
Oh, it hurts so bad. And I think that -- well I had -- there's so many honorable mentions for leechiest scene in this movie. I mean, scene after scene is just sort of like got its hooks in you and sucking, sucking the life right out. And I think I just want to name a couple honorable mentions. One being when the explosion that deafens HW -- that entire scene and moment where the oil derrick is burning, and it's dark and Plainview's covered in oil. And instead of caring for HW, he's watching the oil almost as if worshipfully watching. [Is HW okay?] And of course...
Banks 24:24
No, no, he's not.
Aaron 24:25
Yeah, someone else has to ask.
Evan 24:26
It's a pillar of fire by night. He's staring at the pillar of fire by night.
Aaron 24:29
Ohhh biblical imagery. [Oh!] Yes, the cloud in the day and the pillar of fire by night. Oh, leadin' em into the promised land, leadin' them to the promised land. And of course, and of course, there's no way we cannot just mention the bowling alley.
Evan 24:48
Oh, I was going there too.
Aaron 24:49
Oh, absolutely. And what do you wanna say?
Banks 24:51
That whole scene.
Evan 24:52
Well, I think it's important to note -- you mentioned the murder of Henry, the fake brother. I think actually that's a foreshadowing of murdering Eli, his brother by marriage. [Ah, ohh!] Because he is now related to Eli because Mary married HW, which Eli points out.
Aaron 25:15
Yeah, that's why Eli thinks he can ask for things now.
Evan 25:19
Yeah. So I think, I mean that scene, it's brutal. It's vicious. The part that is leechy to me, though, is when his toe at the end -- inadvertently or on purpose -- like touches the blood of Eli. And that reminds me of HW's toe that dipped into the oil at the Sunday ranch. It's so resonant. Like There Really Will Be Blood, and it is oil and then it's also real blood.
Banks 25:47
I mean, there is nothing, I can tell you, from PT Anderson's perspective, there's nothing accidental about that.
Aaron 25:54
No, not at all. I think the movie is entirely full of, full of these mirroring effects, like yin and yang. Like it is like a one for one, like you look, you see something happen once it's going to be reversed and flipped and shown again in another way. Absolutely.
Evan 26:08
I mean, don't you think that the bit that goes into the ground looks strangely like a bowling pin?
Aaron 26:13
I never thought that
Banks 26:15
I thought it looked like a milkshake?
Evan 26:17
Well, that too. But it's like, it's literally crushing... It's crushing men's heads.
Aaron 26:23
Oh, it falls down the hole and like smashes in the head! Oh. Okay, that's a lot and there's a lot of head smashing.
Evan 26:33
Well speaking of that should we...who's your favorite character?
Banks 26:40
Right now, my favorite character is Aaron. I mean, on the podcast, you guys don't get to see Aaron Jones's expression and that is just such a shame. I feel like you need to have, like our Instagram feed needs just to have like, the Wednesday Aaron to like get you over the hump, right? [That's right.] It's true.
Aaron 26:58
Yeah, I'm here for it. I'm here for it.
Banks 27:00
No, no, no, I'll pick us up with character because I'm not gonna let anybody else take it. Because Eli Sunday is the leechiest.... We're gonna have a like, sum up all the leechiness in one last big round. Like, you know, the season one in review. Eli Sunday is going to be a frontrunner for me because this guy is so leechy. He is so unlikable and relatable, but not in any good way. You know, like we can laugh and talk about, you know, Daniel Plainview quotes all day long. Ain't nobody laughing or quoting anything from Eli, anything from Eli's. [That's true.] No one's going around, like, "Get out of here, ghost!" It's just not a line you want to use at a bar? I mean, it just doesn't quite work.
Evan 27:51
It's weirdly sexual, too. Don't you feel like it's weirdly sensual, like...
Aaron 27:54
Like, "I will suck the devil out of your fingers." It's gross.
Banks 28:00
Pick up lines that you should not use, by Eli Sunday.
Evan 28:04
Eli Sunday pick up lines. Can we start the Twitter feed?
Banks 28:10
In all seriousness, what makes this character so leechy for me... You can see him at every turn being disingenuous about what he loves. And I think that he believes that himself. And I think that's the difference. I mean, Evan, you were saying that Eli is just as much as a charlatan as Daniel Plainview. And I say no. [Okay. Yeah.] I think Daniel Plainview, actually, he just cares about money. He just cares about making it and I think that he is very honest with himself about that. I don't think that -- you can tell even in the last scene that Eli Sunday, he doesn't -- in the last scene, you know, when he's talking about his own faith, like "Oh the devil's, he's so trying to tempt us" and all that, like he is uncomfortable with himself. He's believed the lies that he has been telling himself his whole life, so much so that he doesn't know anything about himself anymore. And he's made, brought an entire church with him into tying those knots and to believing in lies. And then going and speaking on the radio and putting on the nice black suit with the big silver cross and saying all the right things. Meanwhile, Daniel Day Lewis is all disheveled and shooting his shotgun at art across his house like he doesn't care. And there's something honest about that. And there isn't a bit of that honesty in Eli. Leechiest character, perhaps, of the whole season for me.
Aaron 29:46
My gosh. I had just... if the audience could have seen the look of disgust on my face. The whole time you made me think about Eli again. Just disgust.
Evan 29:54
He is very foul. I thought, the first time I saw this movie, that like, "I don't know if this is a good performance or not." But the more I watch it, the more I'm just so impressed by Paul Dano. He is so unlikable. [Gosh. He brings it.] Yeah. So, very worthy contender. I'm gonna go with the obvious choice and pick Daniel Plainview [DP!]. And there are very obvious ways that he is leechy. He's a murderer. He abandons his child. He's greedy, he exploits people -- we could go down the list. But on this viewing, I think what was leechy was that I found him oddly relatable in certain ways that I did not want to feel relatable to. [nooo!] He's really good at his job. He gets to work outside. He wears really cool chambray t-shirt, or like shirts. Like, he's a visionary. He, you know, he's living in all sorts of bad ways. And yet, he sits outside every day, working on the earth, drinking coffee, making plans. And he has a kind of, like Banks said, a kind of honesty and a no-bullshit about him that I appreciate. I mean, he's the one who calls out Papa Sunday for abusing Mary. Now he does it in a really awful way and a creepy way. And yet, he does see through Eli, he does see through a lot of the bullshit. And I'm thinking about the scene you mentioned, Aaron, where he is truly, in his own way, so hurt by HW's injury and Eli's inability to heal him, that I think it sends him into this awful, awful state. And yet, I don't know, there's just parts of that that I could relate to this time that made me really uncomfortable and felt really leechy.
Aaron 31:43
Oh, man. Yeah, I again, I didn't like what Banks said. And I didn't like hearing what you said. Because it was... Yeah, it almost sounded like Daniel Plainview was virtuous in some way. And [yeah!] He's, I guess he's a character you love to hate. You know, he's, he's inescapable and he does stick with you. Like, he's unforgettable. Amongst all the films we've watched, he's a character that will not leave your side or your mind. No doubt.
Banks 32:11
He's inevitable.
Evan 32:12
He's inEvanable.
Aaron 32:13
InEvanable? What?
Banks 32:15
He's also inevitable. Evan is too virtuous to ever become Daniel Plainview.
Evan 32:22
I mean, to me he's one of the great figures in like American letters, or like film letters. Like he is a larger than life character in ways that make me uncomfortable. I'm sorry to cut you off.
Aaron 32:32
No, absolutely. Absolutely. I think he is a contribution to film, to American film, as a character. But what's leechy to me is that the people who surround him like Paul Dano, as Eli, like, there's a lot of characters who are just kind of like, weak and sort of like they're, like, pale and conniving and gross. And I think about Henry Plainview, the fake brother. And he's leechy for me, like I can't get this guy out of my head. He is "So Daniel, I don't want anything. Maybe just a little work..." And he's just whining! I'm like, Oh, oh, it's so gross. To watch him kind of, to sort of like sneak up to [Daniel]. And to put out the, the numbing agent, and then to slip in the proboscis, to use the anti-coagulant... He is just -- he's here to leech off the big bear, you know... [Slip the proboscis. Ew. Oh man.] Like he's here to leech and he tries to be so unassuming. And oh, it's gross to me, and to watch him. He's putting on such an act until he gets drunk. And sort of tries to ask for money to hook up with this prostitute. And you see his true colors, and you're like, Oh, actually, this guy's super shallow. He's super gross. He's not from Fond du Lac. He doesn't know anything about any of this. And he's doomed because he's weak and stupid. And it's, it is hard to watch. It's hard to watch. [Yes.]
Banks 34:22
Reminds me of Papa Sunday. That's the same criticism that Eli has of his father.
Aaron 34:29
Wow, that's what I mean. Like this movie is filled with those people.
Evan 34:32
It's all these doublings.
Banks 34:34
No, like, this is something that's crazy about you know -- and I'll return to this when we do hirudotherapy -- I'm just gonna say: these movies are, why do these movies have to be so hard to watch if they're so good? [Oh!] That's all I'm gonna say.
Evan 34:52
That's a great question. And I think it also tells us that it is time for a little break. I think it's time for us to go to the the beach. [I want to go on vacation.] You guys need a little rest? I know I do.
Aaron 35:04
Let's take some vacation. Yes, yes.
Banks 35:05
Yeah, sounds good. Get that sunscreen.
Evan 35:08
Now, we probably shouldn't talk about the actual beach scene in this movie, because it's not very funny for me. It is beautifully shot. However, it doesn't really relax me. But I do think there are other places in this movie where I get some rest. And so I thought we'd start with a little round robin of our favorite quotes from this film. I imagine most will be from Daniel Plainview. But it's okay if there are others. So I'll start with one that Banks alluded to, which is: "That was one goddamn helluva show, Eli!"
Aaron 35:43
"There's competition in me. I don't like these... people." "I...am a false prophet. And God is a superstition!"
Banks 36:05
"We have a pipeline."
Aaron 36:07
"We have a pipeline." "Give me the blood, Eli." "Give me the blood." "I want the blood."
Evan 36:12
"I'm gonna bury you underground."
Aaron 36:16
"I'm finished."
Banks 36:17
Oh, "the horror, the horror."
Aaron 36:22
Oh no! Apocaleech Now!?
Evan 36:27
Well, thanks for that. Daniel Plainview. Inimitable.
Banks 36:30
Why is it that that's so funny, and every time I laugh and say it, it hurts a little bit?
Aaron 36:36
It hurts.
Evan 36:37
It's true. So on a more serious note, but still a moment in the film where I feel relief -- or something even like happiness or joy -- is (I think it's probably three minutes max) the relationship between HW and Mary, especially after he comes back from his school. The contrast between Daniel, who refuses to learn sign language, and Mary, who does, is really powerful for me. And then the way that she just kind of follows HW around: there's one scene where they both jump off a little porch together, just kind of doing what kids do. But she's attentive to him. Clearly care, they clearly care for each other. And then they get married. And I think this time through, that really hit me very hard. And it was a moment of light in an otherwise very dark and getting darker film.
Aaron 37:30
Mm hmm. Oh yeah. And I think, it's like they are -- they're both characters who are so wounded by their fathers. [It's true.] Like she's been abused. He's been deafened and abandoned, and they find their way to each other. And isn't it right after they... Right after they jump off the porch? Isn't that kind of leaping off together into the unknown -- that it fast forwards to their marriage? Is that right? [It does. Yeah.] It's a beautiful moment.
Banks 37:58
It's... also just a shout out to brilliant editing.
Evan 38:03
Yes.
Banks 38:05
Just the editing in this movie is brilliant. It's a tour de force.
Aaron 38:11
They know exactly when to start a scene, how long to let it go. They know when to stop. And often like the scenes will go, like they'll let them go. But they know just when to pull it back.
Evan 38:22
I mean, they tell the whole story of their relationship in four scenes, three scenes? It's incredible. [Brilliant.] Can I can I just name a couple things about this movie that jumped out at me this time? I think there are a couple easter eggs that are in this movie that are visual jokes.
Aaron 38:43
Mmm. Say more, say more.
Banks 38:44
Yes. I know. There's one. [Let me tell you about one.] There's one, and it's perfect.
Evan 38:49
When he... okay, so my, the first one I saw: in the opening scene, when he breaks his leg. He falls down, breaks his leg. And then he literally has to pull himself up by his bootstraps. Out of the well. I think it's there. And then the second one, and I love this --
Banks 39:08
This is your mom's right?
Evan 39:10
No, I made these up. She tried to take credit.
Banks 39:12
I thought your mom had one, as well. [No, no, no. These are mine.] You're taking credit for your mom.
Evan 39:17
She's really smart. But no. The other one is when HW realized -- he reads the journal of Henry and realizes he's a liar. And he's trying to warn -- I think he's trying to warn Daniel about Henry. [Yes.] And he lights that fire. What does that fire burn up? Pants! Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Aaron 39:41
Well played. Well played, sir. The mic has been dropped.
Evan 39:48
Okay, well, it's been good to go to the beach together. I think it's also good for us to dive into the therapy, the hirudotherapy of this film.
Aaron 39:56
Yeah, let me, if I could jump in. I'm thinking about how, in what ways is this medi - is this film medicinal? Or in what ways is it like a visit to the pharmacy? And the way that I thought about it was like, I was thinking about those old Dutch paintings where they were like, paintings of a dissection. [Yeah.] You know, where like the doctors are all clustered around the table. And there's like, it's a painting of an anatomy lesson. [Yeah, it's by Rembrandt.] They've cut open, sliced open. Yeah, yeah. And it brought me back to my own story that I told earlier, too, where my friends and I killed this leech because we wanted to know what was inside of it. And for me, this film is a dissection of American capitalism and American greed. It puts it on the table and dissects it, and shows me what's inside it. And I feel like part of the history of medicine is not just learning what kind of medicines to give people. But putting things on the anatomy table and finding out what's inside of them. And so for me, [It's a big part of it.] this is medicinal for me primarily in that way,
Banks 41:06
This is why I like, this is why I like these episodes, y'all. Y'all teach me stuff every time we record. It's amazing.
Evan 41:11
Oh yeah, same here.
Aaron 41:12
What do you guys think? Like what? I put something on the table, literally. What about you guys?
Evan 41:17
So, I love what you said. And I have a number of things that I want to talk about. I will try to just limit it to one thing, and I'll come back to profit and profit, my theme. And I'm thinking about the final showdown with Eli and Daniel. And as Daniel is berating him, he says, actually, Eli, you were the False Prophet. Paul, your twin brother, was the real prophet because he sold out your family for money, and then started his own oil wells and became self sufficient. And now is doing great. That is true prophecy: a way to be self-sufficient and rich, according to Daniel. [Hmm.] And he keeps saying this refrain, "Where were you, Eli? Where were you?" And I can't help but hear Job. God's question to Job, "Where were you when I made the world?" And I can't help but thinking about another movie that we are going to talk about, which is Tree of Life, but where were you? Where were you? And there's a way to hear that question that invokes or incites awe and wonder at the majesty in the grandness of creation and life and all that is there. But there's also a way of hearing that question that invokes just pure envy. Where were you? What were you missing out on?
Banks 42:34
Why weren't you there?
Evan 42:35
Why weren't you there? You moron, you idiot. And I think this movie for me illuminates the subtle ways that the same question can invoke wonder, or it can invoke just pure greed and envy. And just the tenuousness of that sits with me. And I will keep thinking about it. But that's what I'm sitting with.
Aaron 42:59
You're helping me see Daniel Plainview as a, as a kind of fallen God. As an attempt, as an attempted theocrat. As at an attempt at a self-made God. [Yeah.] The falls. Oh, Icarus, and thy waxen wing, sir.
Banks 43:16
I mean, I'm not sure I have much to add. But I think the one thing that always sits true for me is: the fact that the things that are so brutal can still sprout such incredible reflection and inspire the need to do better. Like how the heck does that happen? And how can cinema keep doing it? Even in -- for something that you just don't want to watch again? Anyway, that's a thought for another day. But I am very curious to know how many leeches y'all are putting on this one.
Aaron 43:55
I feel like we're like putting chips on the poker table. How many leeches are you putting in? [That's exactly what we're doing.] I'm all in. [Ante up, y'all.] It's a strange poker game.
Evan 44:09
I'm worried that if I ante up leeches, one of leeches will start sucking on the other, and then I might end up with fewer leeches than I anted.
Aaron 44:17
I've actually heard that you can't put like fed leeches with unfed leeches because they might get hungry. Anyway...
Banks 44:24
Aaron, season two leech anatomy, I want to know about cannibalistic leeches.
Aaron 44:30
Yes. Wow, Season Two just got that much more serious. Okay!
Banks 44:33
Got a little bit more cannibalistic, that's for sure.
Evan 44:35
It's true. So I'll go first. I'm gonna give it four leeches. [Good gracious.] If you know me, it's not a surprise. This is the ur-text of leechy films for me. It is a four-leecher. It's the film I think about when I think about leechiness in movies. I think it is painful every time I watch it. And yet every time I watch it, I get something new out of it. I'm challenged in a new way, including this time: I actually found myself way more sympathetic to Daniel this time than any other viewing, even though he's a total monster. And I think that's part of the wonder and the beauty and the power of this film. And so I just can't get it out of my head. It's just, it shapes how I see things. I'm always thinking about it. [Oh!] It's a four-leecher!
Banks 45:22
Man, I see it. This is this is a leechy film. It is not just in the title, There Will Be Blood and that blood will be yours and you will feel it leaving you when you watch it. I get it. It's only three leeches for me. [Okay! Bold.] This is not a four-leecher.
Aaron 45:39
Say more, say more, say more.
Banks 45:41
Part of it is, I think that these -- the themes in this movie are strong. The resonance, though, doesn't shake me like to the bone, right? I mean, the proboscis shorts, like stops short of marrow. It cuts deep, but not bone-deep. And so for me like the leechiness is profound; it's simply not in that "s" tier. It's not in that highest level. And for me, in spite of its artfulness, in spite of its incredible storytelling, the characters, the rivalries, the Drainage!! -- it's a three leech film.
Aaron 46:24
Gosh. One of my tests of leechiness is to see how I'm feeling in my body after the film is over. And I knew it! Like I knew as soon as the dang film was over, like my arms were feeling paralyzed, my arms felt numb and paralyzed. And I've had this experience: it's how I felt after Midsommar, it's how I felt after Parasite. There's so many times, if I'm physically unsettled by it... So there's a part of me... Part of me wonders about the ways that this film is -- and this seems like a weird knock against the film -- that it's almost so artfully done. That as a filmic experience, as an artistic experience, it keeps drawing you back more quickly than other leech movies. [Oh, yeah.] Which shouldn't be a knock against it. It almost makes me want to go back to 3.5, to scale back. [I don't know.] But -- no, here's where I'm going -- is that I wonder, but I feel like once...like just every time I've seen this movie, like you said, Evan, it's doing something new. It's doing new surgery on me. And it makes that half of a leech that I cut off...regenerate back to four, amirite!?
Evan 47:41
That's very fair. I hear that. I hear both of these. And I think, Banks, maybe this is a question. I think sometimes when we talk about Leech movies, we've created a somewhat of a distinction between the quality of the film and the leechiness of the film. [Oh, completely.] So like Fargo, four-star, great movie. I think you give it zero leeches.
Banks 48:00
Zero leeches, not a leech film.
Evan 48:02
Right? So for me, this film is four stars in quality, but also four leeches in leechiness. And so, I don't - yeah, they're not inversely related, but it is interesting to think about which films have the artistic merit, but not the leechiness, and which ones have both? Which ones have neither, things like that.
Banks 48:18
These are the deep questions that I think we might have to start to tackle in one last episode. I don't know about you guys, but I'm feeling the need to make sure that we try to solve these great questions, the philosophical questions of the Leech.
Aaron 48:35
Now these are the puzzles of existence. And we've studied 10 films, we've investigated 10 films. Evan, what are we gonna have to do next?
Evan 48:43
I think we need a year in review. We're going to need to review what we've learned about films, about life, about each other, about ourselves -- in our year in review. So that is coming. Stay tuned for that. If you'd like to share your thoughts, your philosophy...
Banks 49:02
Can we have a, can we have our own line of Hallmark cards just for the Leech? "You're stuck on my heart." [Ew. Ouch.]
Evan 49:09
So yes, if you would like to weigh in on these weighty, leechy philosophical topics, please reach out to us on Twitter @leechpodcast, Instagram theleechpodcast, or email us: theleechpodcast@gmail.com. We look forward to talking to you in whatever medium works for you. Thanks for tuning in. As always, I'm Evan Cate. I'm joined by Banks and Aaron. [Thanks, team. See you next time.] This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic Design by Banks Clark. Leech research by Aaron Jones. Original Music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music. Production held by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.