Episode 7: Leechsommar
Episode Summary
In the seventh episode of The Leech, the guys journey to a remote region of Scandinavia to examine the strange, violent rituals of belonging in 2019’s Midsommar.
Episode Notes
After a mind-expanding Leech Anatomy 101 (2:30), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Midsommar’s leechiest themes (8:51), scenes (16:44), and characters (27:30). To get some relief, the guys head to th...
Transcript
Evan 00:27
Well hello everyone. Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate, and as always, I'm joined by two leechy, leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and Banks Clark. Hey guys.
Banks 00:39
Good to be here.
Evan 00:40
The Leech podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. They also stick with you; they may even be good for you, like a leech. Today we will be watching a highly unethical and leechy film, Midsommar, directed by Ari Astor and starring Florence Pugh. There are a number of interesting people in this movie, and much to talk about, which we will do shortly. But we always want to be expanding our pond at the Leech here. And so, to that end, would you please follow us on Twitter @leechpodcast, as well as @theleechpodcast on Instagram? Please send us your ideas for other movies for us to watch, or your own thoughts, reflections on the films, anything else you want to share with us. Anything else you'd love to hear from, guys?
Banks 01:34
I want to hear their best impersonations of some of our best quotes. You might recall a few good ones, for example, some mention of a "heat-seeking missile, but the heat that it seeks is heartbreak." That little gem? That gem's from Aaron Jones. I want to know what gems you guys have – maybe they're uncut.
Aaron 01:59
Oh, see what you did there!
Evan 02:03
What a mash-up! That's right. If you would even like to make a word art... [haha]
Banks 02:12
Like a caption contest in reverse.
Evan 02:15
It'd be lovely. Okay. So please, yeah, please hit us up on Twitter and Instagram. Okay, let's dive in. This episode, we want to begin, of course, with leech anatomy. So Aaron, please learn us about some leeches.
Aaron 02:30
What I want to share today is, I was browsing the Guardian, and found an excerpt they had posted from Rose George's book called Nine Pints: A Journey through the Mysterious, Miraculous World of Blood. [Whoa] Fascinating book! One I'm going to need to pick up. I learned from this little excerpt something very strange – there's so many things actually, that I want to share from the excerpt. Because part of it is about medicinal leeches and hirudotherapy, which we care so much about here on the pod – huge advocates – but all I want to talk about today is something very simple. And it's the leech's brain. [Indeed.] Or should I say brainsss, plural? Oh, yes. Get ready to stop in your tracks here, folks. Because a leech's body has thirty-two segments – every single individual segment of its body has its own functioning brain. [No. Nuh-uh] It has thirty-two little tiny brains.
Evan 03:30
It has thirty-two brains?
Aaron 03:35
More on that next time! [What does the brain do in the leech?] I was distracted by the sheer number [what?!] and the fact that I only have one brain, and it has many more. That's all I got for you today, folks. Thirty-two brains. [Oh my gosh].
Evan 03:48
Wow, okay. Well, we have three brains on this podcast. [Heyyy!] So hopefully that'll be a fraction of what we need.
Banks 04:01
After 11 episodes, that means that we have been smarter than a single leech. Pretty sure. [Heyyy!]
Evan 04:07
I do hope to someday be as smart as a single leech. Wow. Okay. On that note, we have a lot of thinking to do for this movie. And so, Banks! What happened in Midsommar?
Banks 04:24
Midsommar. Let's talk about it. All right. Before we do though, as always, definitely going to be talking about this movie. So here's a spoiler warning for you. Starting now, we're gonna be talking about all the deets – if you haven't seen it, I recommend watching it. That said, this might not be the movie for everybody. [Nope!] So let's talk about a little bit of a trigger warning. And this is not the movie you want to necessarily be watching with your parents. [Nope nope nope] It is not a romantic movie for Valentine's Day.
Evan 04:54
No. Yeah. Gosh, I wonder who I could even watch this with [haha!] besides you guys.
Banks 05:04
It is a movie that deals with some heavy themes. And so a true trigger warning, because this is a movie that definitely deals with not only violence, not only mental health, but actually directly with suicide. And so this is a movie that we recommend, but we recommend it in light of the fact that it is a challenging film. It is a movie that is not for everybody, for sure. And I have many friends who love films who do not – this is not the movie for them. You know, this movie opens, not so much with, you know, a traditional hero's story with a home – it doesn't start at home. It starts with the breaking of a home. It starts with Dani, who's the protagonist, who we are introduced to. Her sister commits suicide – we are brought into that moment. In that moment, she also – the sister – kills the parents in that same act. And so it's a really brutal opening. But that's also not the opening; the movie then starts some months later. And what we are shown is Dani trying to get over this. So the movie starts trying to recover from trauma. That's how the movie begins. Not with a home. But already a home that's broken; already something that's away from where we're comfortable. And so– and what we're introduced to is not only Dani but also her boyfriend, Christian, and this really tense, not great relationship. They're already– Christian is already unsure if he wants to be in it, then he feels forced to be in it because his girlfriend is going through this intense moment. Christian has this group of friends who are going to go travel to– Pelle is his friend, he's from Sweden, they're going to go to his family's place to enjoy some midsummer ceremonies. But the friends aren't great with one another. They're kind of toxic. They're just negative. But they go. And so Danny decides she's going to go to, and so we have this whole group going. But all the relationships are strained. And very quickly, we see that they're sort of brought into, 'Oh, it's a Swedish community. They're fun, they wear costumes, and they're just doing a little ceremony. And there's some pageantry. Oh, that's good fun.' But then you realize, 'Oh, they're taking it seriously.' And then there's this dramatic scene where, oh, there're actually people dying. Actually, this is violent; this is murderous perhaps. And then as they're thinking– people are like 'I'm out of here,' you never actually see them leave. And then slowly they disappear. And oddly enough, Christian is feeling more, like, unable to connect, but feels like he can't leave. Dani finds almost a sense of acceptance from the community as things get stranger and stranger. And then finally, in the end of the movie, Dani sort of chooses to stay. And Christian, because this is such a normal movie, is burned alive in a triangular-shaped building, with all of their friends that came with them stuffed with straw as human puppets. Because, you know, that's how normal movies end. Oh, that's such a powerful ending–
Aaron 08:24
Oh God!
Banks 08:25
You think it's– you know, the movie ends with this building on fire and Christian burning alive in the skin of a bear. And everyone's screaming– as the people in the building scream from being burned alive. And all of a sudden, Dani stops screaming and smiles and the credits roll. So let's see if we can't make sense of some of this.
Aaron 08:50
Gosh.
Evan 08:51
All right, thank you Banks. That is a lot to unpack. So as always, we try to start with a theme. So Aaron, what is the theme that you would like us to consider as we think about this movie?
Aaron 09:07
Yeah. Even in listening to Banks describe the movie makes me– and when you put it on paper, it sounds weird. But when you watch it happen, it's so much more horrifying and so much more strange, even more than it can possibly sound. Now, you know, a theme that's interesting to me is– I was kind of thinking about this theme of confinement. Confinement. The way in which Dani is sort of– she's stuck in this relationship. And I think that Christian kind of finds himself confined there too. And they're both, either through his sexual act at the end, or through her sacrificing him, trying to find liberation from this confinement. At the same time that they're all being confined at the festival itself. People keep trying to get away. And that doesn't go so well. And in fact, the community has a very clever and nefarious ways of making people who seem to leave, disappear and never really leave at all. And it's this interesting, like, sort of quest where she, where Dani, you know, in accepting a confinement within the community becomes liberated from her confining relationship. Some people even call this like a 'breakup movie.' [Wow.] Which I find really weird. But you can read the film that way, right?
Evan 10:40
Yeah, I think that's right, I see it. My theme, maybe it's related to confinement in a way. It's kind of two words: absolution and belonging. [Mmm.] And I think there's a connection in the film between these two. So many rituals that – we'll probably discuss a number of them – but it does seem, especially by the end, that they sacrifice these people and animals in the Swedish community for the sake of appeasing nature, or the gods, for some kind of sense of the community. And it's almost like the community, as the burning is happening, they're participating in that absolution, right? That rending of garments almost? And I think Dani in her own way, I think is drawn to the community, because– maybe some guilt she feels over her sister's death, or the relationships in her family, her own relationship with Christian, it's unclear. But, I don't know, I feel this weightiness that she carries throughout the film that is then released by the end of the movie, as she embraces this community, as she comes to belong. And so I think not just Dani, but also Pella, has brought these people to sacrifice – brought Dani to the community to be the May Queen, or she ends up being the May Queen. And in that way, these are acts of absolution that he is doing to continue to belong in this community. And so I think you could you could go down the list. There's I think a lot of this dynamic of absolution – for whatever it is that's haunting you or your community – and through these murders, or death, there is a purging that allows you to continue to belong in the community.
Aaron 12:28
Mercy.
Banks 12:30
Ooph, ooph, ooph. It's weird. I both have a hard time liking this movie. And yet, there's something about me that really, really likes this movie. [Uh oh.] And I don't know what that is. And I don't know if it's healthy.
Evan 12:47
There's attraction and repulsion, right? [Oh!]
Banks 12:49
It's right there! [Mmhm!] But I do think that I have– I'm gonna best you all, I think with leechiest theme here. [Gasp.] I think that that is– I think that the leechiest theme in this movie is quite simply trauma. [Oh, yeah, of course.] I think trauma is itself leechy and something that sticks with you, something that takes something out of you, something [gasp] that though it might not be medicinal, I don't think, but I think that that is one of the things that I cannot erase from me: is that this movie does an absurdly good job talking– illustrating how trauma sticks with people. And as a viewer, you cannot help but feel that a little bit. At least I can't. And maybe that's what I like about it, and maybe that's why I don't necessarily think it's good. But, you know, this movie begins with trauma. as I, you know, when I was narrating the story. It begins with trying to recover from trauma. And in the end, it's a story about how this community that's deeply problematic, also, in some odd way, offers some kind of comfort for it. And it just leaves the viewer wondering, 'Is that good? That they're actually creating a space of healing for Dani? Is this healing?' And I have no idea how to answer those. But I do know that the portrait that it paints of her struggle and pain is a little real. For somebody who's seen a lot of trauma in my own life and who's had to support people with trauma. And I think, you know, within this group, I know we've all faced it, and I think we're all in our thirties and I think any of our viewers who've been in their thirties know that you have at least been touched by something like that. And this is a movie that I think in that way can speak to some people and for me, that's just a big theme here for leechiest scene– sorry, leechiest theme. Yeah, I'm struck– struck by the ways in which Dani finds herself participating– that word participation is like really important to me as I listen to all this. She finds herself participating, and yet we as viewers too become participants. There's this invitation to participate in what you see– to empathize– and part of the ways that these people participate with each other, is by attempting to feel what each other are feeling. Yeah, I don't want to give anything away in the future conversation. But this is something I'm going to come back to. If you don't get to it, then I will in hirudotherapy.
Evan 15:30
Good, good, good. [Brilliant.] But the one thing I was thinking as you were talking, Banks, is that– and to think about, like participation and belonging and empathy– I was just thinking about the structure of this movie. It begins in a home, then they literally go away, and then it ends with her embracing a new home. So it's home, away, and home. It's such a classic storytelling thing. And yet, like, there is a journey, there is transformation, especially for Dani, and yet, you're left at the end kind of with that question you had, Banks. 'Is this a good home that she's now in?' She's felt catharsis and they've been able to handle her trauma, but there's also been a lot of murder.
Banks 16:13
And a lot of love. [Ayyy, mercy!] That's an Arrested Development quote for all of your diehard fans out there.
Evan 16:22
"Mostly lies." [haha]
Banks 16:25
Very pertinent to this movie.
Evan 16:28
Okay, well, great. Let's dive into our leechiest character. [Oh no.] So, who's up? Oh, Banks. Please take us away.
Banks 16:37
I think we might have jumped leechiest scene, but I'll still jump in.
Evan 16:41
Oh, no, no–
Aaron 16:42
Oh ho ho, sir, sir–
Evan 16:44
Pause pause. Let's dive back into leechiest scene. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Okay, leechiest scene. So with this in mind, let us unpack some leechy scenes. I'll start us off. And I am going to go with– there are many in this film, so it's hard to choose [Oh, absolutely], but I'm actually gonna go with– in my notes I wrote, 'old people plunge.'
Aaron 16:54
Yeah, [oh no!] ooph, God.
Evan 17:17
Not funny, it's deeply traumatic. But part of what is so leechy for me is that they set it up and it's this– this old couple comes out of this house, you haven't seen them before in the film, they're wearing similar garb – these blue and white outfits. They very slowly and methodically eat this, this meal that– I don't know, I guess on some level I knew it was going to be their last meal, but I was hoping it wasn't – anyway, they eat this meal, they look at each other. There's some kind of understanding. And then the whole community walks with them to this– what's kind of– is it limestone? It's some kind of beautiful, actually beautiful, cliff. And the crowd is at the bottom. And they're all kind of lined up. And then up at the top of the mountain, or the cliff, you see what look like almost headstones. I think they are headstones. And then you're back in the crowd, and these old people one by one come – who've just had this meal – they come to the top of the cliff. They look over. And one by one, beginning with the woman, they just jump off the edge. And there's a larger stone at the bottom. And the woman who jumps first basically lands on it headfirst and shatters– like, sorry I don't need to renarrate all this.
Aaron 18:39
God, yeah buddy!
Banks 18:41
Don't give us a play by play! [Yeah, sorry.] Believe me, it is imprinted on our minds! [Oh God!]
Evan 18:46
Yes. So she goes first. And then her husband goes next. And he's less successful. And someone in the crowd has a large mallet and comes and finishes it. [Gosh.] And I think this is where, for me, the viewer, and also our American and British friends in the community, they begin to realize 'I've made a huge mistake.' I just think I will not ever forget that scene, for so many reasons, just viscerally. The sound! But also like, again, this horrific violence next to beautiful setting, which I think is a recurring pattern in this film. [Mmhm.] And yet, it's also framed as, 'We honor our old people in this community. We don't make them live alone in a nursing home.' Like there's this whole cultural justification that you're kinda like, 'Oh, okay, okay.' And then you like look at the images again, and you're like, 'Oh, well, oh God.' But to me, that's really leechy. That's sucking a lot of life out of me. It does illuminate, I think, some blind spots maybe in our own culture about how we treat our old folks. But it's also just really disturbing.
Aaron 20:06
If your goal is to speak a condemnation about the elderly in Western culture, that's a weird way of speaking your condemnation – in this brutal form of suicide that's supposed to be beautiful.
Banks 20:25
It's completely true. [God.] So that scene for me, the shock of it, is about unparalleled for me, in terms of any movie I've ever seen. And it's not for lack of foreshadowing, that's for sure. [Yeah, right.] I don't want to necessarily call that an accomplishment. But it is something. For me, the leechiest scene that still sticks with me more is one of these scenes that just as– you know, Evan was just talking about– that just blends this beauty and horror, almost, at the same time, in a way that you cannot look– I cannot look away from this movie when I watch it. You're kind of just sucked in. You gotta let that jukebox play out that song, almost. And for me, it's– I'm just gonna put it as the final scene. [Oh!] Specifically, you have this quite stunning soundtrack, brilliant cinematography, smooth shots, plotlines artfully combining, as the corpses stuffed in straw of the recognizable characters who you've just forgotten about because they just disappeared, and then you, 'Oh, yeah, we haven't seen them for a while, they're dead.' And then these puppets of people are brought into this building. And they're dressed up as a, you know, Mark is a jester, sort of, and one of the characters has like limbs shooting out to symbolize a tree, and with like them shooting out of their throat in a way that is both weird, and, I don't know, sculptural in a way that is horrific. And so– and then it's set aflame with a guy stuffed inside of a bear. I still have no idea what half of that stuff means. But man, I can't stop thinking about it. I don't know why. I don't want to, but I can't stop.
Aaron 22:40
So unforgettable. So unforgettable. I just think about the moment where they frame the shot so perfectly, where it's almost mathematical, the precision – where the camera's set up in front of the burning triangle. And you see the door, and the bear, the burning bear is just sitting there squarely at the center, down to the last centimeter, at the center. And it's magisterial. I mean, an unrepeatable accomplishment in film. Yeah, I want to– I think that– well, one reason that that scene also is so poignant, comes back to this theme of participation, which is what I want to get at too. Sort of like, the people who are outside of the burning building are in some ways, in this empathetic connection with those who are inside. But I want to look at this moment in the film that we're all really well aware of, right? Which is the moment where Christian has been like drugged and seduced and is maybe willingly involved in this ridiculously strange sex act, where he's been chosen to impregnate this young woman, so that they can have– they can reproduce and have another member of the community. And he's sort of like led into this room where she is naked and waiting, and surrounded by these other naked women. And I have to say, that not only is this like, shocking because sex is something that tends to be, sort of, a little more private, between either two people or a smaller group of people. But this is not actually an orgy because not everyone's having sex together. It's just a lot of people sort of bearing witness to, but in a weird way, participating in a two person sex act. At the same time that this is happening, and in fact, as people are making their sexual noises in this coupling, the women around the circle feel free both to make empathetic repetitions of those noises, which I will not recreate here. One woman comes and like holds hands with the woman who's being impregnated. Another old woman, as we all well know, comes up behind Christian, plants her hands firmly on his buttocks, and like, helps him along with the thrusting action. Like, this is a firmly community participatory moment, at least, especially for the women in that moment. But in a weird mirror to that– go ahead.
Banks 25:21
So much play by play! [Haha!]
Evan 25:24
Yeah, you guys are giving me grief about this!
Aaron 25:26
But I just felt like, okay– I was gonna use some language, but it was gonna sound way too sexual. So I'm moving on. Because I think that these scenes are actually– I'm describing two scenes that are happening in concert. So I was describing a coupling. But the film itself is making a coupling. It's enacting a coupling between that scene, and the scene where Dani peeks through a keyhole and sees this happening. And it just unlocks and unloads this entire cataclysm of rage and grief, anger, pain that has been pent up inside of her for for the entire film, since the murder of her parents and the dysfunction of this relationship. And she goes back to the common house and just begins to scream and cry. And what happens in that moment, is that the women around her, instead of telling her to shut up and stop, instead of saying, 'Hey, that's inappropriate, can't you just calm down,' they get down on their knees with her, almost in a birthing posture, and they just scream with her in these fully repetitive, empathetic screams, and they participate in huge, scary feeling together, whether that's ecstatic and sexual, whether that's rage and pain and grief over a death. It is so fully participatory. And the doubling and coupling of those scenes I just cannot escape from it sticks with me. That's leechy for me. [Yeah.]
Evan 26:57
So well put, and especially Dani's part of that coupling. I think for me that's– it sticks with me too. And I think it's maybe the most beautiful moment in the film. It's strange. It's weird. It's uncomfortable, but it's oddly beautiful, too.
Aaron 27:12
I think it's so poignant. Even as I was saying, that she's like looking through a keyhole. And it's this moment where everything becomes unlocked for her, where she's like locked out of something, but it unlocks something in her. And she's changed after that scene. She's not the same person anymore.
Evan 27:30
Okay, so, in light of these scenes, we should probably think about our leechiest characters. [Oh!] Banks, do you want to start us off?
Banks 27:40
Man. There are some– we got some serious contenders. [Oh, good lord!] Man, and so it's hard to pick just one. You know, I think that I'm gonna go for though, as strangely relatable as Christian is for me, in a way that is deeply unsettling, I might add. [God.] That sticks with me. I think the leeches character belongs to Pelle. [Gasp, what!] I think that he is the deceiver-in-chief. I think that from the very start of the film, he is running a con. And that he sees that there is– like the friendships in this movie are not healthy friendships. Much unlike this group of fine gentlemen [Ha!] But like– and is tantalizing them with a trip where they're going to be able to go and have sex with lots of hot Swedish women. That oddly enough is foreshadowing. It was strangely honest.
Aaron 28:51
Kind of fore-play, so to speak? Sorry.
Banks 28:53
Oh, come on! You guys! Anyway. But– and ends up not only just bringing these people in, but he's doing it, not only for the sake of his own community, but because he himself, if he does it well enough – right? – ends up getting recognized. Right? For his strong, I think, 'intuition' is how they put it. [Good Lord.] And so he is then honored, and he gets to wear a fancy, like, green laurel on his head at the end, when his other friends who brought some people ended up having to, you know, unfortunately, sit in the temple and get burned to death. So you know, not so good. But he and– so he brings friends and gets them on the line. And he's just killing them. I don't know. And that's just– it's kind of despicable, and yet, I don't know, there's something about him that I, it's kind of likable. He's the only person who really sees and cares about Dani. He has a story of trauma. It sounds like his parents might have even been sacrificed in this same ritual at some point; it says his parents died in the fire. And this is his trying to make right. So, I don't know. He's a leechy character. I think he's kind of a deceiver. I think he's also maybe okay. I don't know, but I think he's really interesting. He sticks with me.
Aaron 30:22
It's almost as if he like, chose the people to bring with him partly because they deserve to die, right? Like, did he see something in these people that makes him think, 'These are the kind of people who make a good scapegoat.' He sees Christian-
Banks 30:39
I don't know about that. [I don't know!] I think Josh was okay. I mean, I think that there're some characters who are just– Mark, okay, maybe– [Come on!]
Evan 30:52
Mark's not good. Christian's pretty bad, too. [That's true.]
Aaron 30:55
Yeah, I don't know, look into the heart of Christian and– anyway. I just wonder how selective he was, or if he found these people just convenient. Anyway, [truth] that changes how, kind of how insidious he actually is, you know?
Evan 31:12
He was my leechy character as well.
Aaron 31:14
Oh, say more, say more!
Evan 31:16
Yeah, not for the same reasons.
Aaron 31:17
Not for me at all, but–
Evan 31:19
Yeah, I just, you know, halfway through the film, I thought I could trust him [oh] as this character who would listen to Dani. The one person who, 'Oh yeah, my community's weird, but you know,' but then I thought about that– I think Mark said it at the beginning– "The Vikings grabbed all the best babes," I think is the quote. And I think in a strange way, Pelle is one of those Vikings.
Banks 31:44
I think it was Josh had said it. But yeah–
Evan 31:46
Maybe Josh, yeah. But I think I kind of– Aaron, I think he was pretty calculating, actually. I think he found this group of pretty unhappy, disconnected people, but also recognized that Dani, underneath her trauma, or in the midst of her trauma, was still a person who, I guess, fit in this community, or was vulnerable, or however you want to talk about it. And I find him to be pretty calculating, as I step back and think about what actually happened, and how he actually got them there. He really like has this sort of happy kindness, that's also like, he's drank the most Kool-Aid of anybody in that community it feels. [Ohh!] So yeah, that's leechy for me.
Aaron 32:31
Ooph, ooph, yeah, I think there's– I think there's strong arguments to be made for Dani. I was finding myself struggling with the category a little bit because I'm finding myself just turning to which character do I despise the most, which is clearly not Dani. I have a lot of, you know, like, warm feelings toward her and want things to go well for her. So for me, it's Christian, to the core. Christian is, oh my gosh, I just despise him. From the onset when he's like, fake with Dani, kind of like, in this but just as a habit to be in a relationship, and he like wants to leave it, but he's too cowardly to leave. And then he– when he has to comfort her, when her parents have died, like she's in so much pain, and all he can do is kind of just pat her on the back. He can't participate, come back to that theme, and like, he can't participate. He is entirely enclosed in his own ego and himself. And speaking of confinement – [yeah] – he is this radical, white, privileged individual, white man who, like, doesn't care who he has to prey upon to get what he wants, to make good for him. He's kind of a loser, too. He has no imagination. He can't think of his own PhD project. So what's he going to do? He sees Josh, the only black person who is at the entire festival, who's working hard, and doing real research, and really, midway through his own project, his own doctoral project, studying these kinds of communities – and all of a sudden Christian gets so enamored, after he sees the fireworks of old people dying, he's like, 'Oh, I'm gonna study this place, too.' And when he's confronted and told that that's totally crappy, he's like, 'Oh, no, plenty room for both of us. I can do this too, whatever I want. Whatever I want, whatever I want.' And I'm like, 'I despise you, sir. You're terrible to Dani. You're so selfish.' Like, in a way. That's why, my earlier comment, where I was like, 'Do some of these people deserve to go?' It's terrible. I am not a judge. I cannot be, for all the flaws I have, but gosh, I– he sticks with me because of how much I'm just like, Rawrrr.
Evan 34:54
He's like an actual leech.
Aaron 34:56
He is a leech! Oh, and in fact, he's called leechy right?! Josh– when he when Josh hears him say, 'You are stealing my project,' and he says, 'That's unethical and leechy.' Christian is the leech!
Evan 35:10
Yeah, okay. You convinced me.
Banks 35:15
It's hard to argue with, not gonna lie! I don't know–
Aaron 35:21
But to be fair, I mean, Pelle is a leech too, because, yeah, he steals the life from other people to keep himself alive. It's super leechy.
Banks 35:29
I would love to see a leech off. [Haha!] Pelle and Christian. We want to know from you guys who would win. So please do write us. Who wins that leech off? It's a leech-off!
Aaron 35:44
We can't take the leech off, until we do the leech-off. [Oh, wow.]
Evan 35:44
It's a leech-off! So, I also want to just do a couple honorable mentions of leechy characters. [Nice.] One for me would be Maya, who is seducing Christian. [Eww, gosh.] Only because – well, she gives a lot of weird looks and stuff – but only because right after they have consummated their relationship, she looks at the other women, and she's, she says, like, "I can feel the baby inside me," or something like that? She's likes, "I think I'm pregnant." And it reminded me of Maude Lebowski. [Haha.] And that just felt really leechy to me.
Aaron 36:36
Oh my gosh, so many honorable mentions.
Banks 36:40
Anything that, you know, brings a reference to the Lebowskis, or I mean, that's just a hard, that's a hard thing to beat right there.
Evan 36:51
The other one I would think about is Mark, only because he literally urinates on their ancestral [haha] the ashes of their ancestors, among many other terrible things. So he's pretty bad.
Banks 37:08
He's right there. But if I recall, there's a weird thing about that scene. There's a lot of sand around that tree for some reason. You know what sand makes me think of? It makes me– [Oh, is it time?] Yeah, I think it makes me think of a beach.
Aaron 37:23
Gasp!
Evan 37:23
We need to go to the beach, guys! A little Leech on the Beach.
Aaron 37:32
Banks, take us on vacation, man, take us on vacation. Where can we vacation in this film?
Evan 37:38
Where am I going to get some rest?
Banks 37:41
Man, I think that if we're going to go, well– let's just hang out at the beach with Mark. He is just a– he is a– this man is a poet. His poetry comes in the greatest tomes of frat boy sayings. You might recall, you know, such great quotes as, "The women in this country are so hot. Why are they so hot?" [So bad!] That's straight out of Keats right there. I mean, he walks around like John Wayne, with you know, some sort of other odd aspects. I love him because he also just– remember that friend who loves to vape and won't stop talking about vaping and also won't stop vaping? [That's Mark!] And so, it is in that spirit that, you know, Mark comes to us who always after, you know some, things never really– he may not be the smartest [no], he may not be the best good looking. He really may not really do much of anything, actually, other than give us a moment at a beach when he pisses on a tree. But that also happens to be you know, where all the ancestors are, that's a fun moment [heh]. But he most certainly helps us always remember that we will never forget the moment when he leaves the film. When one hot chick taps him on the shoulder, and he says, 'Oh, she's gonna go show me something.' Let me say that again. 'She's gonna go show me something.' I mean, come on. What great– I– 'the horror the horror.' Yeah. This is up there with the greatest lines of all time. So thank you Mark.
Evan 39:41
You're right, it is poetry. Well, this has been another– another vital segment of Leech on the Beach. Thank you, Banks. Okay. Well, it is time to talk about the medicinal qualities of this film.
Aaron 40:02
Oh, man.
Evan 40:03
So take it away, whoever is feeling led.
Banks 40:07
I'm going to put one thing out there. [Please.]
Aaron 40:09
Okay. Okay.
Banks 40:10
I think that there's something medicinal about a group of people who want to share pain. [Okay.] Who are willing– there's a really weird scene, so many weird scenes, where you have this group of people who mimic the sounds of pain, in this almost chanting mantra-like way that is both deeply disturbing [Mmm] but also, in my opinion, there's something deeply beautiful about it. Because here's a group of people who are going to cry with you, no matter what. They're going to take themselves out of their happiness, take themselves out of whatever they're doing, run after you, hold you, and every time you cry, they're gonna cry too. And that I think is cultish and weird and strange. But I think that there's also something that is totally counter to what we normally think of trauma, which is trauma isolates. And I think the very thing that pulls Dani in and gives her a sense of home, is the fact that this is a group that is willing to break that isolation no matter what. I think there's a lesson there.
Aaron 41:23
Oh, I absolutely do. And I think that– the lesson that you're speaking of is really counter to the way that, again, that our cultures around therapy and care and trauma work. And I'm– for me, like, the medicinal quality of this film is its critique of the culture that I live and move and breathe in. Like, it challenges. It challenges me partly because of what it demonstrates across, like, in the early portions of the film, we see the horrific scenes that take place in the the murder of Dani's parents – through her sister's suicide – takes place in a location that doesn't look that unlike my own childhood home. These people are killed using, like, the exhaust fumes of cars. They're living in the suburbs. They're suffering quietly and alone. Danny is like– she's just like, on her phone, on her computer, trying to contact them, cannot contact them. It's just this portrayal of suburban, technology-centered life that totally fails, it totally breaks down. And it's awful. And in the way in which it offers this alternative, which is this very pre-modern alternative, of a return to something that is– that's cultic, it's ritualistic, but it's very agrarian, it's very like primitive and primal. And I don't want that thing – that Dani finds in Sweden, nor do I want the thing that she leaves behind. And for me, there's something medicinal in like looking at the tension between those things and living in it. That's me.
Evan 43:14
Yeah, I'm conflicted. I'm kind of with you, Aaron. I think it is shedding light on the ennui and the loneliness in the modern West, that I think Danny and Christian and those guys experience, embody. I just am really conflicted because of how this film juxtaposes sunlight and happiness in Sweden, with violence and murder. And no– and all the violence is off– most of it is off screen, right? It's, it's hidden, and yet it undergirds and sustains the Swedish community. In the film, I mean, most of the people, I think all the people of color have been killed. [Absolutely.] And so maybe maybe what's instructive for me is thinking about this film, as on some level, working on a metaphor, or some kind of analogy level, of this is– this is revealing how the modern West doesn't work. And so trying to articulate why people might be drawn back toward the land or toward ritual or toward forms of community, which is understandable, and I find myself drawn to certain parts of that myself. And yet, there's always violence that undergirds that. And in this context, there's always whiteness that is being maintained through that violence, along with a sense of belonging. So there's like– I guess part of the why I'm conflicted is that I'm– you can see the appeal emotionally why Dani is drawn to this community, and yet you also see how the violence and racism and even the sexism that make that belonging possible for her, just feels really problematic at the same time.
Aaron 45:10
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, you could see ways in which the two different visions of society are both entirely white visions of society. And again, both of them, again, both of them deeply premised on and requiring violence and destruction. And again, the centering of white experience in ways that is entirely problematic. And in fact, I think we talked about this earlier off-mic – ways in which the kinds of toxic belonging that are on display in the Swedish community, there's a lot of different forms of toxic belonging in white communities that resemble that closely, like far right ideologies, specifically, that involve a monochromatic community. Total uniformity, total obedience, violence toward outsiders. It's disturbing. [It is.]
Evan 46:11
It's interest, too, we haven't really talked about it, but the psychedelics – [Yeah, talk about it!] – that are in this film. I mean, I think it's interesting to think about how Dani is– when she's in America, she's on medication. Maybe it was Ativan? Was it– I can't remember. But she, I mean, she's on a certain kind of drug in the West and America. And then she's on drugs in this community, too. And yet, in one place, she's deeply alone in another place, she finds belonging. And so it's interesting, I think most of this film was about the contrast between these two places. And yet, the more I think about it, I do think there are these connections and through-lines: whiteness, the need for some kind of intoxication. And you can even see how intoxicating this white community is, of course enhanced by psychedelic drugs. But I do think the film is sort of subtly pointing at– putting a finger on– the intoxicating power of a community premised around whiteness for certain folks.
Aaron 47:12
Hmm. I think that– or even, and even, I think– one of the ways that I've thought about it is that these intoxicants, these drugs are so omnipresent in the film that you can't help but see them as a metaphor, as both a thing in itself, and just fundamentally a metaphor in the film about the ways in which the desperate desire to belong, and like finding belonging is intoxicating, and can make you do things, agree with things, believe things, or behave in synonymous ways with others and ways that would have totally gone against anything else you would have thought or believed if you hadn't been intoxicated by what it means to be together, to be one of the many.
Evan 47:58
Okay, okay, how many leeches guys?
Aaron 48:00
Oh, my goodness,
Evan 48:01
Banks, you want it?
Banks 48:03
Why no I do not, Evan. Aaron, do you want it?
Aaron 48:06
No, I don't want to start. This is a really tough one for me. Although I find them are challenging.
Banks 48:15
Me as well, me as well.
Aaron 48:18
I want someone to talk me up or down. I'm always– it's too safe to settle on a three sometimes. I think before, when I watched the film, I think I thought it was a two, partly because I found it so punishing, that– I found it so punishing that I thought, 'No, honestly, never again; don't make me return to this, don't make me relive this.' Like I don't want it to stick with me, it took so much out of me. And that was why I was like down in the lower register. But then the more that I talked about it again, this is just a common pattern, ;ike the more you think about something, the more it can take hold of you, too, in a way that feels okay.
Evan 49:01
Well, the more detail you go into different scenes, the more you it sticks to you, you know?
Aaron 49:07
Oh, but honestly, it's also having a little distance, like the medicinal quality comes from me having a little distance from it. So I'm gonna give it three. Talk me up or down.
Evan 49:17
Okay. I'm at two. I think it's definitely gonna stick with me. It's– they're images that are unforgettable. It definitely sucked the life out of me – in many, many instances, and it was it compounded over time, with each successive scene culminating in the fire at the end. But I think my ambivalence in the last category and that conflicted nature of, 'I don't know quite what this film is getting at.' I think that's a little bit more of a two leecher. I think I still don't totally know where the therapy is for me. I will take with me the image of Dani, weeping and mourning with this community of women that she's found. That is a lasting image for me. So that would push me towards three, maybe, but two is really where I'm at, because I think there's that image, but overall, the rest of the film I think it just took more out of me than it gave me.
Aaron 50:15
This reminds me of an earlier conversation where there was– was there a film we talked about where there was a a lot of interesting parts that didn't congeal into–
Evan 50:25
Was it Apocalypse Now?
Aaron 50:26
Oh, maybe it was Apocalypse Now. Yeah. Where there's these parts–
Banks 50:30
It was Apocalypse Then. I don't know– [Haha!]
Aaron 50:35
That was pretty bad, but so good. But is it that critique that there's like, there's all these parts, but they don't congeal into a whole that is fully comprehensible or accessible in some way? I'm just trying to understand.
Evan 50:47
Yeah, yeah, I think it's definitely– it has an ending that is coherent in a way that I think Apocalypse Now wasn't for me.
Aaron 50:55
Okay.
Evan 50:56
I just can't tell. I think what leaves me uneasy about the film is that I think there's a way to read it, where it's sort of a reactionary, right wing appeal to, like the land, and like, this is, you know, the West is so decadent and depraved that we all have to go and find communities like this, that yeah, they're messed up, but you know, this is just what you have to do. And that there's a sort of, as long as you find sort of emotional catharsis, that's all that matters. And I don't think the film was necessarily saying that, but it does have enough– that feels plausible enough– that I am a little like, I don't know if I totally trust what's going on here.
Aaron 51:38
Like the only ethic left at the end of the film is just like, whether it made you feel good and happy, not whether anything was right–
Evan 51:45
Yeah, I think that's right–
Aaron 51:46
Or good for everyone.
Evan 51:48
It's unethical and leechy.
Aaron 51:49
Ayy, it's just to quote the film itself!
Banks 51:53
I will point out really quick for those viewers who aren't as carefully attuned as Evan about the 'unethical and leechy' is actually the quote that Josh gives to Christian about his own trying to steal his thesis topic about that. So it's one of the few times at which we actually have a true 'leechy' reference, in terms of something that is oddly on par with what this whole podcast is about. So that's why we keep talking about it.
Evan 52:26
Well, maybe, I mean, maybe that's a good enough argument for three leeches. I mean, it name drops us in the–
Banks 52:33
So I think Evan's right, and it might be a good argument for three leeches. I'm gonna give it two leeches. [Gasp.] I think– I am surprised by this, because, this was my second viewing. And, I was thinking this might be, like, an iconic four-leecher. [Whoa buddy!] And I watched it again, and again– like part of how leechy– leechy works how lychee sits with you. [Hmm.] And this thing sat with me in a way that it was like eesh. I wanted to get this thing off of me, but like, we've been talking about it, and there's something that I struggle with in this movie is– what the hell's this all about, in some ways? [Mmhm.] And it sits with you undeniably. But I'm kind of with Evan – I have a hard time seeing what it's about. And I think that there's a way that this movie has been read, and I– you know, I remember back when I was a teacher, and we had– I taught a couple of film students, I think of one in particular. This student kept on talking about how much they were into this movie. 'It was so cool. Did you see this one scene?' And it got– it totally kind of missed the mark sometimes about like, 'Oh, this is just a movie that was about effect.' Yeah, it was about the shock and awe.
Aaron 54:02
Hmm. Interesting.
Banks 54:05
And for– and I'm wondering if the sheer visceral reaction I'm getting, this is the most visceral podcast out there as I understand it–
Evan 54:15
It's true. It's true.
Aaron 54:16
Ayy, ayy, am I right, am I right?
Banks 54:17
-And this movie is certainly visceral, but I'm wondering if it– I was hoping for a little bit more meaningful punch behind that viscerality. I'm not quite sure– I'm not yet convinced that it's there. And maybe I'm gonna– I might– one could attribute that to my own lack of understanding. But I will say two leeches is no small thing. Two leeches is a lot of leeches. Believe me if you've ever had two leeches on ya, that's a lot of leeches.
Evan 54:52
You're gonna feel those leeches.
Aaron 54:54
I have to say, my– I had an experience with leeches just this past week. We were down at the Eno, and my daughter, we got back to the car she had a leech on her leg. [Oh my gosh.] I did not instruct her to let it finish feeding before she took it off. She just yanked it off, and indeed, the like anti-coagulating agent let blood just freely flow. I was like, everything we're talking about is true.
Evan 55:22
It's real.
Aaron 55:23
It's all real. [Is she all right?] Oh, yeah, she's fine. But what– as I was listening to Banks talk, I was thinking about, like, are there different sort of kinds of creatures that suck your blood that we can introduce to the conversation? Like, for example, if a movie is more like a vampire bat that only takes things out of you, and gives nothing back to you, has no medicinal quality? [Whoa, whoa.] Okay, maybe that's a huge misunderstanding of vampire bats–
Banks 55:52
They are important pollinators, as I understand. [Haha!]
Aaron 55:56
I'm sorry, I shouldn't hit my desk, but that was hilarious. All I'm saying is – the things they give back to us are maybe a little more indirect, and the way that the leech is part of medicine. Anyway–
Evan 56:09
No, I think that's a good point, though. That's a good point. Because I think– well, you're giving me so many spin-off pod ideas [haha], other blood sucking animals, but there are blood sucking animal bird– blood sucking birds. [What?] Yeah, maybe that's our next leech anatomy next time [This is amazing]. Sorry Aaron. Keep going.
Banks 56:29
Stay tuned for the Mosquito Cast. The movie where we just– [Haha]
Aaron 56:35
–Discuss movies that make you itch for a long time after you watch them. No, no, no. Misquitos, that's a pretty good one too, though. Mosquitoes are like obnoxious; vampire bats, I would consider more dangerous and ominous. I mean – [The rabies, the rabies ] – the rabies alone, but the sweet harmless leech? I mean–
Banks 56:55
Compared to the two, I will say I'll take the leech out of all the things we've talked about so far.
Evan 57:00
It's true, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, on that note, we– if listeners have other animals that suck blood they would like us to talk about [hahaha], please. You know where to find us: @leechpodcast on Twitter and @theleechpodcast on Instagram. We continue to be the Leech Podcast: we're Evan, Banks, and Aaron. Thanks for listening. Talk to y'all soon. This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic design by Banks Clark. Original music by Justin Clump of Podcast Sound and Music. Production held by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.