Episode 8: Zero Leech Thirty
Episode Summary
In the eighth episode of The Leech, the guys venture into the murky waters of the War on Terror via the 2012 film Zero Dark Thirty.
Episode Notes
Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Zero Dark Thirty’s leechiest themes (5:12), scenes (14:30), and characters (24:55). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (35:33) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (43:23).
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Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.com
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External Links:
N. Annandale and Amin-ud-Din, “Note on the Occurrence of the Leech Limnatis nilotica in Seistan and the Afghan-Baluch Desert” [link]
Mahmoud Bahmani, Zohre Eftekhari, Ava Mohsezadeghan, Freidon Ghotbian & Nafise Alighazi, “Leech (Limnatis nilotica) causing respiratory distress in a pregnant cow in Ilam province in Iran” [link]
John Gast, “American progress” [link]
Relief Organizations Working in Afghanistan:
For listeners who would like to contribute to ongoing humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, please consider supporting one of the organizations:
Credits:
Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones
Editing by Evan Cate
Graphic design by Banks Clark
Original music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music
Production help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions
Equipment help from Topher Thomas
Transcript
Evan 00:27
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate, and I'm joined by two leechy gentlemen. Aaron Jones, Banks Clark, hey guys!
Aaron 00:39
Hey Evan!
Evan 00:41
The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you, but also stick with you. They may even be good for you, like a leech. This week's film is Zero Dark Thirty. It was directed by Kathryn Bigelow and stars Jessica Chastain, who was nominated for an Academy Award for her performance. This film was nominated for a number of Academy Awards, and won an Oscar for Best Sound Editing. There is much, much to talk about here, and we will dive into it shortly.
Banks 00:41
It's good to be here.
Aaron 01:18
Evan, I do just want to remind us and our listeners that as we start discussing the film, we're discussing it at a pretty heavy time. And this is August – next month is going to be the twenty year anniversary of September 11th, which feels pretty heavy right now.
Banks 01:32
I think it's also important that – in terms of recent events – we've seen the fact that the twenty-year-long war on terror has ended with the United States pulling out of the country and the Taliban retaking it, and then seeing a massive humanitarian and refugee crisis occur. And this is content very pertinent to the movie. And it's something that we cannot but be aware of as we discuss the episode.
Evan 02:04
Yeah, well said, I agree, and I just think we should – out of respect for those who've lost their lives, their homes, their friends and family – that we should take a moment to consider these things and just pause. So I'd like to just have a moment of silence to remember these people. Okay, thank you. Alright, so normally, at this time we talk about anatomy of leeches. We are still going to do that, but we're gonna do that at the end of the episode today. Instead, we'd just like to dive right into this movie. So Banks, will you tell us what happened in this film?
Banks 02:45
Happy to do that. As always, before we begin, just a quick spoiler warning: we'll be talking about this movie, if you haven't seen it yet, we're going to be talking about all the details. But also really wanted to say a quick trigger warning: this is a movie that has a lot of potentially triggering content, especially with regard to scenes of torture and warfare. This is definitely a movie that holds no punches about the stories of what war can be, how bad it can be, speaking from the stance– from the position of the United States, speaking from the position of Afghanistan– it is a very difficult movie to watch. That said, this is a brilliant film, and this is a film that I see as really occurring in something of three different acts that occur throughout. If I were to summarize it, I think that we start in the first act as being introduced– the characters to being introduced to the situation. The movie opens, we're introduced to the news commentaries of 9/11, what's happening, the destruction of the Twin Towers, and we are then thrown right in to an interrogation chamber with the actor Jessica Chastain playing Maya, and Jason Clark playing Dan, as being these two primary people interrogating. And we get to see just the brutality of what is occurring in order to gain intelligence that the United States can learn what has happened, who were the people responsible for the atrocious events of 9/11. And from there, we see just how far that continues to evolve. And that leads to the second act, where all of a sudden, all those interrogation methods are no longer allowed. And we see then– we all of a sudden have to find the people responsible– the Taliban, Osama Bin Ladin– in an entirely different means, and the difficulties that that provides. And that– that in turn leads to the third act, which is very challenging, in which we actually get to see when they're able to – at the culmination of all these different pieces – use the intelligence they gain. They find Osama bin Ladin, they're able to locate where they think he is, and then initiate a strike that leads to the effective assassination of Osama Bin Ladin, in what they call the 'greatest manhunt in history.'
Evan 05:12
So, why don't we just stick with you, Banks. Is there a theme from this movie that stood out to you?
Banks 05:19
I'm gonna say that a leechy theme of this movie is patriotism. [Oh no.] I think that the thing that I cannot– I watched this movie when it first came out, y'all, and I watched it this past week. And in light of everything that we've seen of this year – from what's happened in Afghanistan – how can you not think of what it means to love a country as much as you can? To love it, and then feel the pain of 9/11? How can you not empathize with all the characters in this movie striving to find the people who committed this, who planned this, who allowed this, who allowed it to occur, and then you watch it, and you watch the atrocities, that vigor that that zeal inspires, and you start to feel guilty, you start to feel– it brings up unspeakable thoughts. And, I don't know, I think many of us have had experience in actually working with and speaking with veterans of the war in Afghanistan, and Iraq. And I've not served, and yet you're watching this movie, and now we're watching what's history play out before our eyes right now. And you're seeing what war looks like. And I know that I love this country. And I know that I love a lot– and I know that I hate what occurred on 9/11. And I hate the zeal that also is brutally portrayed in this movie as wrong. The torture, the civilian casualties. [Yeah.] The blatant killing of children and women just because they're there. And looking at a love of country as being a source of it. It can't help but be a leechy theme, and someone like me who can't let go of a love of country and let go of his own patriotism. Here's a movie that says, here's the cost. That's a leechy– that is the leechiest theme I can find in this movie, gentlemen.
Evan 07:40
My theme is 'You had one job.' And I'm struck by Maya's character in many ways, in this film, she is the central character. A lot of the film is seen from her perspective. And as I think about what we know about her, we know that she's really good at her job. She's highly competent, she sees every detail, she works harder than anybody else. She's utterly devoted to her work, to her country, as you describe, well, Banks. And yet there's this coldness about her work. There's this, I don't know, especially by the end, you see the hollowness, perhaps, of it all. She has been really good at her job. And we'll talk more about this later. But I do think there is something in her tears at the end that show the limits of only having one job, and life. And so yeah, the limits of professionalism might be a way to put it. She says at a number of points, 'just do your job.' And so I just– that theme of work and doing your job and doing it well, but also the hollowness of doing it well? That is leechy for me.
Aaron 08:51
Yeah, I'm hearing and I'm thinking, a way I would articulate that as like, 'the danger of a single-minded obsession,' that there's a way in which that seems to do harm. And I– for me, as I look at the film, I'm kind of torn between different themes that I observed. And one of them has to do with this sort of Machiavellian theme of 'the ends justify the means.' When I look at this film, I see it as a strange form of fantasy. I see a film that claims to be obsessively about reality, but that is actually a form of fantasy – ideological fantasy about the ends justifying the means. Because it's building and building and building, while there's this accumulation of pain and tragedy and trauma, toward the final moment– the sort of orgasmic climactic moment where the end goal of destroying Osama seems to justify all the other harm and all the other shattering, and I think it's a fantasy to suggest that that's true. I don't think it justifies it. I think the film spends its final third, lavishly, lavishly portraying the murder of Osama bin Laden – a great murderer himself – lavishly portraying that in a way that's meant to seduce me into a fantasy of believing that that kind of project justifies all kinds of trauma and harm and civilian death. And I– And I just don't think in its project of recreating reality, that it's real.
Banks 10:36
And so I'm curious just to hear, Aaron: what would you say to the fact that many would claim that this is a very real depiction?
Aaron 10:46
I would claim that every depiction is a collection of choices. Every depiction is a collection of choices about that which will be shown [Hmm], and about where the lens will linger and where time will be spent. And what's interesting is that, at the end of the film, the focus is not actually on– that we never actually get to see the face of the slain Osama bin Laden. It's not about Osama bin Laden. It's about the act of killing him. It's about the vindictive act. And I don't know– it's about choices for me.
Banks 11:25
It's about the manhunt.
Aaron 11:26
Yeah, it's about the manhunt, and justifying the manhunt itself, too. I feel like this film is an act of devotion. That's both– I think that film is inherently contradictory in my mind. That it's both a critique of these methods of torture, and the obsessive quest to kill Osama bin Laden, and to justify the war on terror by accomplishing that mission. I think it's a critique, but I also find it a celebration of the accomplishment, which I think, again, comes back to the study of fantasy and the ends justifying the means. So I don't know, your question's hard to answer, but I stand by what I said.
Evan 12:07
It's a good question. And I think this may be a good point to note: that part of this film– that it generated a lot of controversy on precisely this point [Very much so.] How realistic was it? Which facts are accurate? Which facts did they exaggerate, which facts are left out, which characters are composite? [Ahh.] There's a long literature on that, which we could get into, but I think one thing that's a tension in the film, that I see, is it has a kind of documentary feel, right? This is this is just what happened, right? These are just the things that happened in Guantanamo, or in Pakistan, or, you know, wherever. And yet the director and screenwriter themselves went out of their way to say, 'No, no, no, this is not a documentary; it's more like journalism, or it's realistic.' But that's one of these contradictions, or tensions, or whatever you want to call it – a different one than you're describing, Aaron – but I think is at the heart of this film, too, is: by making something that seems so realistic, and yet is, like any piece of fiction, not what really happened, and then also, even some of the facts that it talks about maybe didn't happen quite the way they described, what does that say about the piece of art as a whole? [Yeah.]
Banks 13:17
It's almost like we're describing the very limits of fiction. [It's true.]
Aaron 13:22
Hey, well, let me jump back in here, because I also think that part of the the question about the film has to do with its intended audience, its intended audience. And as I watched the film, I so understand that I, as an American, am the intended audience.
Banks 13:41
Are you, though?
Aaron 13:41
And that someone– [huh??] – I feel like it! I don't feel like this film is meant to entertain or to delight or grant or give satisfaction to someone who's living and watching films in the Middle East.
Banks 13:56
I'm sorry, this is a podcast about films that are meant to leech, that are not meant to entertain, necessarily! That are meant to be painful, even in the watching. Is it not possible that this is a leech film from its inception? I'm going to push back on you my friend, my leechy friend.
Aaron 14:15
Hmm. I think that this film can't make up its mind on whether it wants to be a leech film, or whether it wants to be a purely ejaculatory patriotic celebration [wow, wow] of the killing of Osama Bin Laden. I don't think it can make up its mind.
Evan 14:30
Okay, there's a lot there. We do want to get into that [Bold words, bold words.] Let's maybe dive into a couple scenes and characters and that might help us unpack some of these bold claims. So I'll start us off. We want to talk about leechy scenes in this film, of which I believe there are many, but I will focus on the second scene of torture. Both scenes, both extended scenes, are very difficult to watch, I find, but there was something about the second one where Maya, who first was the observer, now in the second one, is more or less leading the torture. So we see her now embracing this role even more so in the pursuit of the ends that Aaron described. But in the second round of torture, there is physical and sexual humiliation, and also this intense, intense bodily torture where they make him go into a very small box. And I was just sick and upset watching this. And I think what's so hard about this scene on top of just how difficult it is to observe, it's also a really hinge moment in the movie, where out of that experience, a little bit later, they get information from that person they had tortured, that eventually down the road leads to the location of Osama bin Laden. So it's an awful scene on its own, but it's also sort of awful in the string of events that it unfolds.
Aaron 16:03
Gosh, those scenes really do stick with you. They are leechy to the core. And I think– I think that's where I– my speaking to the contradictory nature of the film. I'm not supposed to enjoy that. In fact, I think I'm supposed to be sickened by it. And I am, I am. And yet I'm told by the film that those actions are justified in a way because of what happens in the end. And I think that's what I'm being told? But for me, I'm– one of the things that is so difficult about this film is that it not only tries to recreate what happens in those torture rooms, but it also tries to recreate some of these horrific moments that supposedly justify the torture happening: attacks of terror. And for me, leechy scenes in the film. Now what's interesting is that the film when it– when speaking to the moment of the 9/11 terror attacks, and the Twin Towers – [It's black screen] – black screen, we don't see them, but then the film wants us to see these attacks that continue in other settings. A double decker bus in the UK, or a hotel, a bomb going off out front of a hotel. And–
Banks 17:13
But don't you think that part of that is because– again, of knowing audience? There is not an American alive who doesn't have those images ingrained in their memory, and to the point of, it's a little bit cheap and unrespectful of the audience to then blast them again?
Aaron 17:31
I think, yeah– I think it's irresponsible to re-traumatize with those scenes. And in fact, I think it's so strange that this film come– is part of a genealogy– of films that are a reflection on 9/11 or the War on Terror, some of which want to show, right, are scenes about what happens on one of the flights around 9/11, right? What, what's going on in that setting? I wish we could see what that looked like, sounded like, or felt like. And it's like, I don't want that, actually. And so when I saw them on film with these terror attacks, and in other places, showing what that would be like, oh my God, I found that so difficult. And I was thinking to myself, 'Oh, this feels sick, like this feels like a sick thing to do,' to actually try and film an artificial recreation of those moments. I found it very leechy. I think there's a lot of different ways to look at what's happening there. But that's something that took a lot out of me. I found myself stricken and horrified, you know, that some people live under those kinds of threats on a daily basis, and I'm horrified. And maybe, again, maybe the movie accomplishes its goals in those moments.
Banks 18:44
I have to say, Aaron, it's hard to– those are really hard scenes. They're heartbreakers and they're unthinkable in some ways. And that's why I can't stop thinking them, oddly enough. And for me, you know, it's so interesting, the echoes of 9/11 in this film ring throughout – even a black screen – to the point of, for me when I look at some of those scenes, for example, the terror attack on the hotel, for me, that's– you read the headlines, but I had never seen what that actually looked like. Because we'd all– all of us had seen the towers, but we hadn't seen the Marriot. And this movie showed you it. And for part of me, like that was a powerful emotional reaction. I think that it utilizes that in the story, and the way to tell a story, that has a very clear, you know, narrative arc that's trying to say a very specific thing. But also, part of me is like, 'I didn't know this part of the damn war.' So much of this film showed me things that I didn't even know were there. Things that were so convenient not to know were there. Things that, I'm gonna be honest, I don't have a leechiest scene, because I can't even make sense of the film to begin with. So I'm gonna probably bow out of it. But what I am gonna say is, the scenes that were hardest for me, were the scenes where all of a sudden, I had to face the fact that I did not understand what was going on in the least. It wasn't just the narrative. It wasn't just the media. It wasn't just terrorists. And it wasn't just the Americans. And to this– I am watching them as we speak. I, as I say these words, I am seeing those scenes replay, being like, I still don't know what is– what happened in the country. And as we are, you know, and that country led is now in a state that I still don't understand. That is all I can leave you guys with in terms of scene because it just, it rattled me, it rattled me to my bones.
Aaron 21:11
Yeah, and I think– I really do honestly believe that, that part of the desire of the people who made this film is to educate, or is to, what is it? What is the Flannery O'Connor line? 'For those who are nearly blind and hard of hearing you paint in large and startling figures'? For people who are complacent, you have to shock them awake. And there's a way in which– I think that the film does want an American people that that has become complacent, or detached from the War on Terror, to be immediately put in contact with it and shocked– electric shocked back into an awareness of it. And for as much as I said earlier about the film having a celebratory component, I also think that– I feel like I can sort of see why they might have felt a documentary would be insufficient, because it's not a full recreation of those moments.
Evan 22:07
But that does get to your tension, though, Aaron, of– it is shocking. And I think for the first third to half of the film, there's so much of this shocking– these awful attacks are happening, you understand why Maya is driven the way she is. And yet, at the end, it's still– well, we're gonna have to talk more about this, but– at the end, it still ends up with them succeeding in the mission. They find the bad guy. And, you know, I want to compare it maybe to Apocalypse Now, which we've talked about. [Sure.] Which I feel like the tone of that movie is very much– it's hitting on all the patriotic themes that you mentioned, Banks. There's pageantry. There's the American military, all these things. And yet, there's pretty– I don't know though– we debated it, but there's a pretty clear sense that 'Man, this war was a bad idea, and it unlocked these awful things in human beings.' And I think this movie [I see where you're going Evan] doesn't quite do that. The way they set up the torture in the beginning, I think they could have taken us there. But by the end again, it's this like, I wonder if Mark Boal, the screenwriter, or Kathryn Bigelow, the director, were just so impressed by the competency of the CIA and the military forces in getting bin Laden, they just couldn't maintain the critique all the way through? They were just like, 'Actually, at the end of the day, these folks were great at their jobs, and that's, that's impressive.' You know, like, I don't mean to make light of it, but that, I think, speaks to the dissonance at the heart of the film.
Banks 23:34
This this film hurt me more than Apocalypse Now. [Really?] Easily. Oh, my gosh, are you kidding me? I'm in– I'm in pieces right now. This is–
Evan 23:44
Well, I'm interested in why? So was it– is it that it's so cold or almost procedural? Or what was it that undid you in a way that Apocalypse Now did not?
Banks 23:53
I don't think there's– I think it's because it is– this film is neither cold nor procedural. [Ah.] I think that this film is incredibly human all the way down. The film does a very good job of letting you empathize with whoever you want to. And I say that as a white American. So my–I think that that is a huge bias. But what hurts me is I can empathize just as well with the commandos as I can with the people who– in, you know, even in Osama Bin Laden's fortress, and I don't know who to root for anymore. Apocalypse Now, powerful as it was, never got me to that point. It was more concerned with telling the story of the Heart of Darkness. This film is caught up in I think the exact same maelstrom that I'm caught up in, which is, 'What the hell are we doing here?'
Aaron 24:54
Yeah, really insightful.
Evan 24:55
Okay. Yeah, agreed. Aaron, is there a character that is especially leechy for you?
Aaron 25:02
Yeah, as I was thinking about this, I was in a bit of a struggle. And for me, the leechy character that I landed on is someone really unexpected, and it's a character who is a ghost for most of the film, and it's the character that everyone keeps naming as a rumor, and that Chastain is hurting people and wading through evidence to find. And it's the person who's the courier for a sama Bin Laden – Abu Ahmed al Kuwaiti – who we only see as he's being photographed through the window of his vehicle. You remember this? And he drives the white SUV. Those those moments just seeing him through the window. He's someone who's sort of devised this, this reality of entire concealment and anonymity, almost impossible to find, and just kind of driving this white SUV and making phone calls, relaying messages, for this terror network. And I'm like, 'What is this that I'm witnessing?' This is where I come up against what you're saying Banks, this unintelligibility – this is a life that I don't understand. And that is really, really– just like seeing this person living their life, driving in circles to be impossible to find, hiding within these walls, but helping– but doing these things so that they can continue to help a terror network operate. I don't know, for some reason, as I was like, 'Who is a leechy character in this movie, who takes something out of me and sticks with me in a way that's really uncomfortable?' That's what came to mind. Not what I expected, necessarily, but it's what I came away with.
Banks 26:54
That's powerful. That's a hard character for me. I don't know enough to relate. Without relation, I can't get a leechy character. Right? It takes two to leech.
Aaron 27:09
There needs to a be a leech and something for it to leech on, yeah. [You need a host!]
Banks 27:13
But for me, if I am the host, then the leech is certainly Dan. This is the character played by Jason Clark. And he is– you walk into the film, Dan is the character that greets you with brutality. I think part of the purpose of Dan's character, even, is just to be– put you in the role of Maya, who was shocked by how brutal the circumstances are. And Dan is the one carrying it out. And so Dan is this character, and so he sticks with you. But for me, it's not just the fact that he's bought into 'this is how interrogation works, this is how we get intelligence.' It's how easily he slips into the role of bureaucrat after. [Yes.] And you see him with his tie. You see him so much, he's cleaned up. He is, you know, at Langley, you know, living up, and it's the same person that you met in the initial movie who was stripping men naked and then watching men suffer because all of a sudden, against their religion, all of a sudden, a woman is looking at their genitals. It's someone that brutal, now in a tie, like beautifully dressed. If that isn't a critique– if that isn't a critique of American democracy, bureaucracy, I don't know what it is, yeah. [Oh yeah.] And it stings. I'm gonna say leechiest character, Dan. [Yeah.]
Evan 28:48
I'm right there with you, Dan was my choice as well. And I would echo everything that you've said, and just add two pieces of information. One, the scene where he is feeding ice cream to monkeys.
Banks 29:01
Oh my God!
Evan 29:03
Is really awful.
Aaron 29:05
Caged creatures, mind you. [It's a– oh, metaphors.]
Evan 29:08
One of them– and it's– you know, you think on one level, 'Oh is just going to humanize this person, is he nice to animals?' But he's not, really. And then, you know, the monkey does steal his ice cream when he's not looking, which is, I guess a nice touch. But that, I think, is an image I have with him. And the other one– so that's him in the field, as torturer– but then to follow Banks's timeline here, he also ends up as a bureaucrat, and I think the scene from that that sticks out to me is in the last meeting before they okay the raid. Maya's the only one in the room who 100% believes that Bin Laden is in the compound [yes]. And they go around the room and some people are like, 'Oh, no, it's 60%. I think it's 40. I think it's, I don't know.' People are all hedging their bets, and Dan, who has seen her in action, firsthand, has shown her the ropes, shown her what to do, called her a literal killer, he does not back her up. He says it's a soft 60%. He sells her out. He doesn't back her up. And that, to me, is so slimy, and leechy. And I mean, on one level, he's done exactly what he said he was going to do, he was going to go to DC and play the game. [Mmhmm.] But to see him do that to this person, Maya, who is so much better at her job, so much more competent – and she's right, we all know she's right. And like, let's not forget the gender politics here, too. She is the only woman in the room. She's the only woman in almost every scene in this movie. And this is the one dude who we think really gets her and is on her side. And he sells her out in this final meeting. That guy's a leech. Total leech. And Maya fucking owns that scene, by the way. [She does.] That should be the last word of that scene, because she just– perhaps my favorite scene in the movie is that one right there.
Aaron 31:05
Wow.
Banks 31:06
Not because it's leechy. Just because, it's just badass.
Evan 31:11
Well, and Chastain is so amazing, and just humanizes Maya, and I mean, we know more about Maya than almost any other character. So I guess, before we leave leechy character, I think it's worth considering. Does anyone– like, how do we feel about Maya, with regard to this character? I mean, she's super intense. She's obsessed. Is she leechy though?
Banks 31:32
I'm the one who said that leechy characters, you got to have some empathy to be leechy. I empathize more with her than anyone else. [Mmhmm.] And so if anything else, like, the only reason why she isn't mentioned as my leechiest is because it's a little too close to home.
Aaron 31:48
She's like the one character you're meant to identify with, in a way?
Banks 31:52
I don't know. I think I'm just saying that I'm like, jeez, I empathize with her. And I don't want to be the leechiest– I don't want Banks to be the leechiest character. And so I'm like, I empathize with her the most, so it better not be her.
Aaron 32:04
She has a kind of, she has hope. She has integrity. [Yeah.] She has ambition. She has this unrelenting pursuit of the truth. You know, she wants it. And I think that there's enough, sort of, distancing of her from the worst trauma– trauma-inducing behavior that Dan implements, that like, somehow she holds our empathy more than he can as the– kind of the primary agent of that harm, somehow. I think they should– if there were like concentric rings around the center of hell, he's down there at the bottom ring. But she's like, a couple rings removed. At least, I think the film lets me feel that way.
Banks 32:50
Maybe I'm right there with her.
Evan 32:51
Yeah. Well, I certainly don't– she's a tough one. Because she shows a level of humanity at the end, I think, with her tears, and even the sense of, they ask where she wants to go, she doesn't know where she wants to go next. [Yeah.] And that's, that's a very human moment. I, there's a way you could read that as a critique of the whole film, just the look on her face. So it's hard for me to find her leechy in that way, like, she's not Howard Ratner from Uncut Gems. She's not Daniel Plainview. But she, I think her circumstance is very leechy. Again, the gender dynamics. She is, again, this woman in this role, who is ambitious, is really smart, has integrity, and yet to succeed in that world, has to go along with torture, brutality, a sort of win-at-all-cost mentality. And you see the cost of that. To her and to others.
Banks 33:53
And all I'll say is– the only thing I will add to that is, we have looked at leechy characters who aren't leechy in a purely negative sense.
Evan 34:02
That's right. That's right.
Aaron 34:04
Hmm. Well, here's okay, here's a–
Banks 34:06
Those are the– nah, I'm not done yet, leechy friend. [Come on. Come on.] I think that Maya as a character plays into a lot of the virtues that we've seen from the leechiest characters, who leech on to you in a medicinal, powerful sense.
Evan 34:28
Banks, that feels like a nice segue. But, I want to hear from Aaron too, so–
Aaron 34:33
Yeah, let me– I just feel like I have to get this out really quickly, which is– I think one of the reasons that I'm having trouble identifying with her as a leechy character is that in some ways she doesn't feel fully like a person in this movie, but more like an embodiment of an idea. Because she is a composite. Actually, if we look at the history, she's a composite. And for me, she's more like an embodied idea, an embodiment of the quest, or an embodiment of the American obsession behind the quest that finds itself entirely moorless, and entirely lost, once it's got what it wanted at the end. So yeah, but I'm interested in this medicinal piece. Let's go there.
Banks 35:16
I'll go there. Are we ready for that place?
Evan 35:19
I think we are. Yeah, this movie doesn't have any places for us to go to the beach. So I think we should just dive right into the hirudotheraphy.
Aaron 35:27
We were like really scrambling for some like–
Banks 35:29
This is a desert without a beach, y'all.
Aaron 35:31
A desert without a beach. Oh my gosh!
Evan 35:36
Wow, yeah. Banks, is there a medicine, something instructive for you?
Banks 35:41
So, I'm gonna build off my good friend Aaron here and say, I agree. I think that the movie is artful, in the way that it displays Maya as a composite. I love the scene where they're in, like, the Langley cafeteria. And he asks her, 'What have you done?' Only Osama bin Laden. Like, it's so plainly saying: you have been built for this and this alone. [Mmhmm.] Why is it that I look at that scene, and I'm like, 'That's me.' Why is it that I watch that scene, and I'm like, 'I'm just a composite too.'
Aaron 36:25
What do you mean? What do you mean?
Banks 36:28
Aren't we all just a composite of the most powerful experiences, most educational experiences, most formative experiences of our lives? And here we're looking at somebody for whom all those experiences happen to align to a single goal. And there's something I envy about that, somebody for whom all of their experiences seem to be aligning in opposite directions, they don't align anywhere, I don't know what the hell I'm doing in life! And here's somebody for whom they all combine, and they combine into something monumental, whether we want to say it in the end was something that made the world better or not, we can talk about. But it certainly exposes the fact that I don't feel any more or less composite than she is. And so when I think about medicinal qualities, heck, we can't– we just can't escape ourselves. We are built of the history that made us. I think there's a medicinal thought in there.
Aaron 37:31
So you're saying something like, seeing her kind of living in such a radical response to her moment, there's this kind of honesty about how much we are defined and shaped by our experiences and the history around us? That seeing that named in her character, or embodied in her character, that does something for you? Or it affirms something about the complicated nature of life for you?
Banks 38:02
You just overthought the hell out of that [haha]. I think that she's honest, and I think that she's just saying, 'Hell, we're formed, and we do the best we can.' [OK, I really like that]. I think there's something good about that.
Aaron 38:20
We are formed, and we do the best we can. I'll take that. I can't– I don't know where, yeah– for when I think about medicine, I'm like, ohh man, I don't know. And certainly, like I said– I think this film is supposed to electrify me and jolt me awake in a way that's really uncomfortable. And I think it accomplishes that. And if part of what it's trying to do is provide therapy for my complacency? Yes. Mission accomplished. [Yeah.] And I think that it's meant to be a bitter medicine. Maybe that's what I'm saying? [Absolutely. Absolutely.] It is a bitter medicine by design. It's not meant to go down with a sweet, pleasant flavor. No, indeed.
Evan 39:08
I don't mean to cut you off, Aaron, but I have, I think, maybe two medicinal pills from this movie. One's a small pill, one's maybe a bigger pill. [Ok!] The small pill – what I wrote my notes was – competency is not virtue. You can be really good at something but not be good.
Aaron 39:27
Oh, ouch.
Evan 39:30
So, I just think these people in this movie are so good at what they do. And what they're doing is largely, I mean, again– what are the ends that they're doing them for? They're bad. That's where I'm at. So that'd be the small pill. And then I think, as you described, Maya is a composite of many people. And you talked about the history that she embodies in her person. In a weird way that actually connects, I think, to my bigger pill, which I want to give my partner, Lucy, a lot of credit for this. We talked about this film a lot. And she thinks that Maya in the film is very much like America. That she sort of stands in as an archetype for America: so technically adept, very rigorous, has a sense of righteousness. There's almost a Messianism about Maya. Remember, I survived these bombings, unlike my friends, so that I could finish the job, she says at one point in the film? [Yeah.] She's at times vengeful, she's obsessed. She's single-minded in the pursuit of excellence. I mean, there's just so many American tropes wrapped up in her character. And I think, if you see her as America, and you see the ambivalence about what she's willing to do to attain certain ends, and then by the end of the film, how disappointed she is or how hollow that victory is, I think there's something about – to go to your theme, Banks, of patriotism – there's something about America that is being described, shown to us, in the person of Maya. And if I could just add one more little wrinkle to it, that the old US History teacher in me, I felt like I had to do this. So it might be a total stretch. So bear with me. I don't know if you'll remember the "Columbia" painting, the Manifest Destiny painting of this large, sort of heavenly woman, Columbia, striding across the prairies, bringing telephone lines and pioneer wagons, and, you know, basically pushing away native peoples. It's an image that's often used to describe Manifest Destiny, which is a big idea in the 1840s. However, the painting came in the 1870s. So it is a fictionalized retelling of the history, that sort of glamorizes this American ideal. And I wonder if in some ways this film is like that. It is a retelling of America that doesn't elide all of the complications. But at the end of it, again, depending on how you read the end of it, they get the bad guy. [Mmhmm.] And they are extending American reach across the globe, no matter who's already there.
Aaron 42:15
It's like she's– she is like Lady Liberty. [Yes.] She's like, yeah, all these womanly figures who embody the principles and ideals of the American system.
Evan 42:26
Feel free to push back on that; that could be a total stretch.
Banks 42:29
And yet those ideals are still there. I think it's a harsh read. Not gonna lie. And this is the art history buff amongst us. [Ahh.]
Evan 42:40
I'm not saying it's great art, by the way. I'm not saying–
Banks 42:44
I think I will say I think this movie is great art. [Yes.] I will put that out there. I think it's controversial. I think it's difficult. And I think that it's the kind of art that we all need to reckon with. But I also think it's very honest art. And that's why I think it's great. Because I really think that this is the kind of movie that gets– that touches Americans across their experiences. And I think that is rare. And I think that is laudable.
Aaron 43:14
Yeah. Mmm. Ugh.
Banks 43:16
Maybe that's a transition into the final score.
Evan 43:23
Yes. How many leeches?
Banks 43:25
How many leeches this film might get? [Shoot.]
Evan 43:30
I need to think about this.
Aaron 43:31
Yeah, my thing–
Banks 43:33
Well I don't. [Oh really? I mean–] Aaron, you need to think less than I do!
Aaron 43:39
If you're immediately– if you have leeches on the tip of your tongue, which by the way, you should get that look at. [Yes.] You should go ahead, and I'll go right after you.
Banks 43:51
I'm giving this film three leeches. [Oh, wow.] Three leeches for this film. I think it's a very leechy film. I think it's challenging. When I think of what a leech film is, I think in our last episode, I gave a rousing number of zero. This is its antithesis. [Okay.] This is a movie where you're challenged in a very core sense, and I have not been able to shake it. Here's the thing though, like, I watched the movie. And I– within three minutes, I already knew the entire movie. Because it was that vivid in my memory from the last time I've watched it. [Oh, wow.] And that was, what? Five, seven years prior? It had stuck with me, it just needed a little spark, and it was there. And it has been hurting ever since. It has leeched, and it's made me think, and I think I'm a better person having thought of it.
Aaron 44:59
Yeah. Well I wanted to give it three leeches, but felt like I couldn't because of the last thirty to forty-five minutes of the film. And honestly, I think– well, I think where things kind of– you said that there was a scene that was your favorite, where they're kind of in that boardroom, and they're saying how much of a percentage they are confident about this. And there, there were moments where this movie became, it felt like it was becoming a thriller, and it was meant to thrill me.
Banks 45:27
"Are you not entertained?"
Aaron 45:28
Right? I mean, I think that's the whole thing for me. And like when– as soon as we meet the soldiers who do the mission, and I think for me, part of it has to do with Chris Pratt [Star Lord], and just identifying him as kind of 'American commando superhero guy,' yeah, like a Guardian of the Galaxy. I think part of it is about his reputation. But I think seeing him and his sort of– it feels like it starts to become a buddy comedy between him and his like best bud on– the commandos. Let me check the actor's name here – Joel Edgerton as Patrick. And for me, it's like, it's so hard to take the film seriously as that begins happening, because that's when the the notes of triumphalism – which maybe are meant purely as critique – but the notes of triumphalism start to sound loud and proud over the film. We're like looking at the– I'm trying to figure out how to say this without sounding like a total jerk– the machismo guys there who are are kind of accomplishing the mission, and like, playing games together, and it's all just part of like, it looks like this ideal. For me, it felt like a recruitment video – a recruitment video for the armed forces. If you want to serve your country, like, look what you can accomplish. Look at how exciting this is, look at the kind of brotherhood and excitement that you could experience. And for me, like, that's where I think part of the charge of propaganda comes into the film, where it's like, 'Hey, wait a minute, where was all the disgust and critique from before?' Not that I– and I have really complicated feelings about what those men accomplished. I mean, I'm astounded by it. But for me, I wanted it to be a three leecher and that moment sort of made me feel like, 'Oh, this film didn't land in the way that I wanted it to.' And maybe that's just selfish. Maybe that's just me, but I'm giving it two leeches. I went on way too long, but two leeches, that's where I'm at.
Evan 47:21
Alright, so for me, my leech rating, I think I'm at two. And I'm mindful of a conversation we had awhile back with Dr. Sebastian Kvist. Ah, who is the Curator of Invertebrates at the Royal Ontario Museum. He's a delightful fellow. And he reminded us–
Aaron 47:39
A very handsome man. [Dr. Kvist!]
Evan 47:40
Great hair. One thing that–
Banks 47:43
Amazing hair, especially under hats.
Evan 47:46
Yeah, I mean, so much style. Well, what Dr. Kvist said to us was that leeches, they secrete a protein into your blood that allows it to flow more freely. It prevents coagulation, so it allows the blood to flow. And I think about with this movie, I have had a lot to think about since I watched this. I kind of haven't stopped thinking about it. I've been reading about it and talking with pretty much everybody I run into contact with, and there's some blood that was flowing in my brain thinking about this movie. Now. I'm only at a two because I think, unlike some other leech films that might get a three or four, the second viewing didn't quite sort of reshape how I see the world, which I think for the really high leech films for me, that's kind of what I'm looking for. But it did really stimulate a lot of questions about the War on Terror, about American patriotism, about war, and all these big questions. So I'm at two leeches just because it got my blood flowing.
Banks 48:50
Geez, that's I'm at three.
Aaron 48:57
Metrics, y'all, metrics.
Banks 48:59
I'm just saying like– [yeah, it's fair] – I'm just gonna say, preach it. Aaron, your turn.
Aaron 49:07
No, I already said, yeah, it's the ending for me. Yeah. The last thirty minutes. It's like the last leech. I'm like, 'Hey, I have these three leeches attached, they're like sucking my blood, making it flow,' and then all of a sudden one of the leeches is like, 'I'm full. I'm gonna detach,' right there at the end of the movie. I want them all to still be there at the end.
Banks 49:26
Wait, where's the fourth leech, then, normally attach? [Eww.]
Aaron 49:31
It wasn't attached!
Banks 49:31
It sounds like a personal problem. We don't need to know about that.
Aaron 49:34
The fourth leech wasn't attached! Or you're right. It was, like, down my throat somewhere. That's why I said all these weird things today. [Haha.] It was speaking through me.
Evan 49:45
Hmm. I guess this raises a question though. It's like, if we give a leech a high– or give him– a film, a leech. If we give a film a high leech rating–
Aaron 49:55
If you give a film a leech!
Banks 49:57
If you give a film a leech, it's going to want a misquito to go with it.
Aaron 50:02
If you give a moose a muffin, if you give a film a leech, haha.
Evan 50:05
I mean, I just feel like on some level, if we give a high rating, we're endorsing a film. It's not a two– it's not Siskel and Ebert. It's not four stars. It's not Rotten Tomatoes, it's a leech rating. And that's a special, sacred thing. But I'm just saying, like, I feel conflicted about this movie. I don't think it's quite as 'rah rah patriotic,' maybe, as Aaron described, but there's enough of it at the end. It does make me uncomfortable. And I do think some of the– if they hadn't had such a– I mean, part of why Apocalypse Now works for me. And I know I'm just kind of like rambling here–
Banks 50:38
It's unapologetically unpatriotic.
Evan 50:40
Yeah, well, and it's also absurdist. It's not trying to be realistic. This film is trying to be realistic, and then doesn't tell all the facts right. And so– [It's true.] And that's okay. Like, I get that. But like, don't tell me this is like pseudo journalism, but 'not a documentary,' and then get the facts wrong, and then basically be pro-torture. And yet–
Aaron 51:00
It's misleading, it's misleading!
Evan 51:02
It's hard. It's hard.
Banks 51:04
But here's the thing, man. Half– a lot of the facts they got right, were right. [I know. I know.] And those facts tell the story of what happened.
Evan 51:16
Yeah. And I I'm willing to–
Banks 51:20
Like, yeah, they got a lot wrong; I'm not saying they didn't tell the story, though.
Evan 51:24
Yeah, they did. And I'm willing to live with the uncomfortable truth, that I think is true, is that sometimes actionable intelligence has historically come through means of torture. [Yeah.] Okay? I oppose that practice. I don't think it's actually the best way to get actionable intelligence. And I think there's a long history of people discussing that. But I think this film does make the point, yeah, hey, some information did come from torture that was useful in finding Osama bin Laden. And man– and that sucks. That's shitty. I wish that was not the case.
Banks 52:02
I mean, I think the film says, yeah, if you torture people, people say stuff. I think that we saw that in Pan's Labyrinth. I mean, I think the whole point of the movie isn't that. The point of the movie is, we tortured people so that they would say stuff.
Aaron 52:17
They say stuff. They say something, yeah. [Right.] And some of that stuff inevitably had to be semi-actionable.
Banks 52:24
Yeah. And that's what's fucked up. And that's the part that sticks with me is, the thing that hurts me about this movie, perhaps, isn't actually what we saw. [Yeah.] It's what we didn't. How much unactionable intelligence did we extract, did we test, did we bomb – [Yeah] – because we tortured? That haunts me from this movie. And it's in the negative space of it. Because the movie says we tortured people so that they would say shit. And then we did everything we could to build on that evidence.
Evan 53:02
And it's pretty wild. Because like, we tortured so many people to get the intel from, like, a few, a handful. And then it was lost for seven years, in like, some bin at the CIA, that some, like, Maya fan went through all of it and found it almost kind of by accident. And that's how they did. And so it was like, in a way, like good detective work. So props to her. [Yeah, but still.' But it's like– but the cost of getting that and just, I don't know, there's just, there's– you could read it as, what a miracle that we found it, right? And thank God because we killed Bin Laden. But if you have any, like ethical sense at all, from any, like, ethical tradition, you have to think this is really troubling.
Banks 53:49
Yeah, that's true. We have an interesting debate between the twos and threes. No ones and fours or zeros here. [That's true.] The question remains, what about you, the listeners? How many leeches? This is the question. This is a very apposite film. It's something that speaks to our current year, and [we'd] love to hear more about what you guys think. So hit us up. And hit us up on Twitter, hit us up on Instagram. Evan, what are those details?
Evan 54:25
Yeah, just to give some detail there. Twitter, we are @leechpodcast, and on Instagram, we are #theleechpodcast. Sorry, the leech (pond)cast on Instagram. So please send us your questions, your thoughts, we'd love to hear from you.
Aaron 54:42
Guys. What do you think, can we do without least anatomy this week? Or do I need to say a couple words?
Evan 54:47
Yeah, I was pausing. I felt like– I do feel like I need to learn some more about leeches. I mean, Aaron, can you please teach us?
Banks 54:53
I cannot end without learning about leech anatomy. Give me some leech anatomy now.
Aaron 54:59
Teach us about the leechus! Yes, I can. And in fact, I will try and be brief here and just tell you about– I was doing a little research into what are the leeches that live and thrive in the Middle East. All right? I'm looking at a specific kind of leech called the Limnatis Nilotica, which kind of can be found as far west as the Mediterranean Sea around Palestine, and as far east as India – whole region. And what's interesting to me is to think about, kind of, the terrain in this country. And we were joking– I mean, not joking that we were commenting earlier on desert terrain. And talking about this is– this movie is like a, it's a beach without an ocean, right? There, it's a beach without water. And so what I want to talk about is water. Because if you're going to have the leeches, you need to have the water. And what's interesting is that leeches in the Middle East, are most– often most dangerous to animals that drink from stagnant springs, so animals like cows, camels, sheep, herd animals that need water to thrive and survive. And in fact, the problem with this Limnatis Nilotica, very commonly found Leach in then Middle East, is that if you're slurping up water from a spring or a pond – [I know where this is going, it's not good] – it's likely gonna get stuck in your throat. [Ughh.] It's likely gonna latch on right there in your throat. And by golly, it can cause – oh gosh – a whole lot of problems, including like a hemorrhage or anemia, whatever. Let me just say one last thing.
Banks 56:46
Please don't continue. I don't want to know all the complications.
Aaron 56:48
And I came across this article. I mean, I was I was looking at that from Comparative Clinical Pathology, an article about respiratory distress in cows in Iran. But now this other article is from the border over near Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan. And the writer is talking about biblical references to water-sipping and water-slurping that may be related to leeches. This is the last thing I'll say. There's a story in the Bible of all places about Gideon, who's picking out soldiers. Here we come back to the idea of soldiers again, and Gideon picks out his soldiers based on the way that they drink from streams and springs, there. Well he's in Palestine. [Ah.] And he chooses the one that use– that take their hands into the water, they take their hands in the water and they lift it out, [Clever!], they lift it out so that they can examine the water before they slurp, as opposed to someone who puts their face right down in the spring and drinks whatever's there. [That would be me.] That person may be too careless, and may end up getting a leech in their throat, and they should not be serving on the squadron. That's all from me for today. Wow. Wow, that's– thank you for that. I will not think about drinking from a stream in the same way again, thank you.
Banks 58:11
Nor will I ever drink from a stream again.
Aaron 58:16
Neither in thought nor deed. Yes.
Evan 58:18
Well, on that note, thanks everyone for tuning in to the Leech Podcast. It has been great being with you. We wish you all the best and look forward to talking and hanging out together again soon. Take care y'all. This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate, graphic design by Banks Clark, original music by Justin Clump of Podcast Sound and Music, production help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions, and equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.