Episode Summary
In their inaugural episode, three nerdy friends introduce themselves and the concept of “leechy” movies. They tell their origin story before diving into the leechiness of the 2019 film Uncut Gems.
Episode Notes
After describing the pod's origin, Aaron, Banks, and Evan dive into the leechiest themes (7:01), scenes (18:07), and characters (28:05) from the film. They conclude by considering the film's medicinal qualities (34:09) and giving an overall rating – from 1 to 4 – of the film's leechiness (39:52).
We're always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!
Series URL: www.theleechpodcast.com
Public email contact: theleechpodcast@gmail.com
Social Media: @leechpodcast on Twitter, theleechpodcast on Instagram
Credits:
Hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones
Editing by Evan Cate
Graphic design by Banks Clark
Original music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music
Production help from Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions
Equipment help from Topher Thomas
Episode Transcript
Evan 00:20
Hey everyone, welcome to the Leech Podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate. And I'm joined by my friends Aaron Jones and Banks Clark. Hey, guys. [Hey, hey. Good to be with y'all.] The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that stick with you, while also sucking something out of you. You know those movies that you watch, and you leave the theater and you're like, wow, that was a great movie, but I don't think I ever want to see it again. But then, like, 10 years later, you watch it again and you're like, Whoa, that's maybe the best movie I've ever seen. That's the Leech. Banks, I think you're gonna introduce the theme a little bit.
Banks 00:56
Oh, our great origin story. You know, so all three of us were teaching at the same school and, as teachers do, we would always gather in one of the teachers' rooms and we'd sit and discuss. And I think that that was a place of sanity for all of us. And I think that, more often than not, we always found ourselves talking about movies and things that we've all learned -- that we were big movie buffs, or at least want to be movie buffs. One of the things that I remember us talking on is, like, returning to really difficult movies. And one day it just sort of came up. We were just sort of talking about movies that we loved and yet never returned to. And, you know, for me when I think of it, the movie for me was Perks of Being a Wallflower -- it is one of the most influential movies I've ever seen. Yet I've only seen it once. I would, I always say I want to see it again. But yet I never muster the energy to actually see it a second time. And it's just I know, it's gonna be too exhausting and take something out of me. And yet, I consider it very formative. And so it had both this edifying, upbuilding, almost medicinal quality and yet, it's like, okay, I don't think I can return to this thing. And I know that for each of you guys, you also have movies that were like that. I wonder if you guys could share which ones they were?
Aaron 02:14
Yeah, for me, I think that one that comes to mind immediately is 2016's Moonlight, which is a film that I watched and so just emotionally eviscerated by. It is so gorgeous. It's so beautiful and I know it's like... It's a commitment that I have, you know, I have to watch it again. When will I? Oooo. But I have to because it's so leechy.
Banks 02:41
Oh. What about you, Evan?
Evan 02:43
Yeah, for me I think it was There Will Be Blood, which came out my senior year of college and I remember going to see it with a friend. And we got out of the movie and I just remember, like, feeling so claustrophobic and tense the whole movie because of the score. It was that Jonny Greenwood music and then it just ends with this, you know, act of violence. It's just painful to watch. And then we get out of there and my friend was like yeah, I think that movie was about the Iraq War. It's like, maybe? I don't know? I can't even think about it. I can't make a coherent thought because all you hear is that weird music. And I think I knew that it was good I knew there was something that was being said there, but I was like I, I don't know. I'm not ready for it. And then I think a few years later Aaron and I watched it, and I was like this is the best movie I've ever seen in my life. So yeah, that, that to me embodies, encapsulates the Leech.
Banks 03:44
Yeah, yeah so like we all have these movies. And you know it's funny because we all -- it just sort of happened organically. We had, I remember, this lunchtime discussion: we were talking about these movies, and maybe it was that they were both medicinal or edifying and yet they also like you know took something out of you. They leeched something, or maybe it was the fact that, you know, they always stuck with you. And they literally, like, stuck on you, right? A little parasite or... and yet there's something about them that was... maybe just you couldn't shake off. Right? And so we all do that. Then all of a sudden we realize we're just we're describing a leech, and that's where this whole idea came from of the Leech and Leech movies and the Leech Podcast.
Evan 04:31
Yeah, yeah, they stick with you, and they kind of alter how you see other movies afterwards. I mean, I can't tell you how many runs I've been on with people where, like, I bring up There Will Be Blood and they're like, "Okay, here's the classic There Will Be Blood quote," you know. So yeah, they stick with you. They shape how you see things afterwards.
Aaron 04:47
And we all quickly remember that at least a couple of us are history teachers and that, in the history of medieval medicine, of course, the leech is an essential, essential contributor to the health of the body. And that even in modern medicine, on occasional, for like strange purposes, the leeches is still used. So this is a modern and an ancient thing.
Evan 05:10
It's true. And we look forward to future episodes where Aaron will inform us about modern day uses of leeches. We were doing some research, some fact finding and that'll be something to stay tuned for in the future. Today, our episode is about a very leechy film, in our opinion. It's called Uncut Gems came out in 2019. Aaron, do you want to talk about what happens in this movie?
Aaron 05:34
Yeah, I'll just give a brief rundown. Now, you know, this is one of Adam Sandler's finest performances. This movie came out in 2019. Uncut Gems. It's set in the Diamond District in New York City. And Sandler plays Howard Ratner. Howard Ratner, who is, who has his own little diamond shop. And he's deep in gambling debt, and has an enormous amount of family drama, trouble. He is also addicted to gambling. And he's, you know, he's way behind on his debts. The creditors are closing in, and he's got one last gamble to try and turn everything around. One last gem, this uncut gem, it comes from a mine in Ethiopia and it's an enormous black opal of inestimable value. And the film is about him trying to turn his fortunes all right around.
Evan 06:29
Yeah, so as we, as we dig into the movie a little bit more, I just want to throw out a spoiler warning. At this point, we are going to spoil this movie, what happens, especially the ending. So if you haven't seen it yet, go watch the movie. And the rest of what we talk about will make a lot more sense. Okay, so the first thing I think we should do is just kind of think big picture about the movie. Some big themes of the movie I think each of us have jotted down a couple ideas we want to talk about. So, Banks, you want to take it away with the theme?
Banks 07:01
Yeah, so, for me, that this is something that -- this is a movie that has stuck with me in terms of just... trying to process everything that happens. Because this is almost a movie where everything runs against itself. I honestly, it felt to me like I was getting pulled upstream against the current by, like, a boat or something this entire movie. And the way I've like come to describe it is this movie is an anti-Exodus. So some of the symbolism of Uncut Gems you know, it's, it's...there's a lot about just sort of the Exodus narrative throughout. You have, of course, the Passover story actually being sort of narrated, right, by Howard Ratner, Adam Sandler's character, and you have all this symbolism. At one point, they literally dump sort of... I think it's you know, something red into the fish tank and so the symbolism you know, it's not quite on the same level as like Prince of Egypt or something like you know, Magnolia or something or literally like rains, plagues and stuff. But you know, the way that I see it is you have all the elements in this movie of an Exodus, of freedom, right. You have all the chances and opportunities for, you know, Howard to make things right: to get out, you know, use an escape hatch or make things safe. And you have all these, you know, moments of normalcy that happened throughout the film, and it creates this expectation. You want some sort of relief, if anything, just from the pace of the movie that just keeps hitting me over and over again. But the only reason that they're in place is so that, at every turn, this character is going to then turn away from it. It is going against that Exodus and every time he is so just attached to not wanting that freedom, to getting out of it. And so I don't know I see it as the current of this movie is Exodus, and the plot of this movie is that tow line pulling you upstream against the current. And it just never stops until, in the end, the main character drowns. So that's what I see as one of the major themes: the anti-Exodus. What do you think, y'all?
Aaron 09:23
Yeah, I'm really taken by that. I connect a lot with the idea of plague. When I think about the movie, I think a lot about plague. When it has all these ways in which there seems to be something that is kind of fundamentally diseased about his quest for freedom, and for one last win. And it comes down to, like the film starts off in two really painful and strange places. Is it okay to talk about this right now?
Evan 09:50
Yeah, yeah, do it, do it.
Aaron 09:52
Two painful and strange places, one of which is...It immediately starts with someone who is... It starts in the Ethiopian mine with someone who is wounded, someone who's wounded and being carried out of the mine. So there's a sense in which, from the beginning, this whole quest is haunted by a sense of woundedness and hurt. Like, in the pursuit of these gems, people will be hurt deeply by it, we're told immediately. And then we're taking at first into a mine shaft. And I, the word shaft sounds very unpleasant, because then the mine shaft we're taken deep inside, and it transitions into a colonoscopy. A colonoscopy, the only time that I've seen another person's anal canal explored on the film screen. And so there's a sense in which we're already looking for disease, from the start of the film, like something that is diseased and deep inside of this creature. And what I, what I determined by the end of the film was that even though Howard Ratner is found not to have any disease, deep inside him, he has a disease deep inside him. [Yeah, he doesn't have colon cancer. But yeah] It is not colon cancer. [Yeah.] And so there's that sense in which like, the brokenness and diseased nature of this quest, like it may not be visible, in some ways. Or it is visible in Ethiopia, it's not as visible in his life, or at least in his, his internal organs. But it's there, like the brokenness is deep inside.
Evan 11:38
Yeah. And that makes me wonder about what is that brokenness? Or what's the cause of it? And to maybe pick up on this, this anti Exodus imagery, or this Jewish imagery, which suffuses the film, I think one of the things I was thinking about as a theme was, what does it mean to live in a diasporic identity? So I think it's an interesting way that connects...So I was trying to think about what connects Howard to Kevin Garnett, who's another star of this film, in really unexpected figure [what an amazing performance.] -- but amazing. Yeah, maybe the best part of the movie. But there's this strange kinship they feel. It's centered on this stone, this black opal. But when they first meet, after the colonoscopy, Howard says to KG, he's like, this is a black opal. It was found by "Black Jews" in Ethiopia. That's what he calls them. And I was trying to figure out like, what is... what speaks to KG in that moment? And the filmmakers do something really interesting, where they cross cut as KG holds the opal. They cross cut scenes from Ethiopia, scenes from the mines, and scenes from KG's own life, like his actual life. Kevin Garnett, of course, was a prodigy, High School phenomenon, basketball player -- came into the NBA straight out of high school -- one of the first to do that in the 90s -- a very sort of raw or uncut talent, right? He was this really great player, took him a couple years to develop into the, you know, the Hall of Famer that he became. But it's like he sees something in his own story that connects to this gem. He's literally a guy who, you know, in the NBA, you're traveling half the year, right? What is home for Kevin Garnett? He's constantly in movement. And just like Howard, right? Howard's own home is bifurcated between the suburban existence he has -- and he's clearly trying to get out of -- and in this odd apartment living situation with Julia. He is himself living a sort of diasporic identity.
Aaron 13:48
Both of them, their ancestors are people either from Africa or from Israel. They don't, they don't get to live in, and participate in, those like ancient parts of themselves -- in a way that's connected to place.
Banks 14:05
It's kind of amazing, in general, the symbolism of the movie -- it runs deep, but it is one of the most veiled symbolisms I've ever seen in a film. Like, they don't -- the symbolism is there for those who want to see it, but you really have to, you got to mine for it. It's very understated and I think that that's to the credit of the director. I think that one of the things that makes this movie leechy is that it does it leaches the viewer by it -- you want so desperately for this guy to get out -- to find a way that's better, but he's in a cycle that he cannot control. And I think that's for me what makes it the leechiest, like the leechiest part of this movie. The leechiest theme for me is the fact that, there, the leech is coming, like from the expectation -- is leeching off of your expectation the entire time for him to do better. And he cannot, he cannot change. He's addicted to that gambling, to the thrill of the chase, to the thrill of the bet and the con.
Aaron 15:18
Yeah, you so desire for resi-your desire for resolution and catharsis is so strong , and it's so there's just so resisted by the story and the characters that it like you're in constant, almost a desperate, panicky sense of discomfort as you move along for things to just resolve and come to harmony. And they won't. It's like, it's like living with static in your ear. So like a slight electric shock in your body. As you move. [Yeah.]
Evan 15:49
So do you guys think there is resolution at the end of the film? Like where do you... So if we're going back to the Exodus imagery, it seems like the only person who actually escapes is Julia. Right? [Not sure she does.] But maybe she doesn't? I don't know. Yeah, depending on how you read that. But you know, Howard at the end, you know, he gets shot in the eye, which I have to think is fitting in a certain way, right? [Below his eye, like into his face. Right?] Was it in his face? I thought it was in his eyeball.
Aaron 16:15
I thought it was in his cheek, like right below his face.
Evan 16:18
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Aaron 16:20
Cuz remember, like the camera goes into his cheek.
Evan 16:22
That's right. [Oh, my gosh, it does.] Yeah. And back into the, kind of like, the opening scene. I guess, so I was reading something about this movie, and this guy was saying that there's something about that energy of always having to have one more bet to get deeper in -- when you know, you can get out -- that adding one more bet -- there's something about capitalism or gambling or something. There's that energy that keeps drawing you back in, even though he knows that he could...he could be freed. But he can't. And there's something more almost manic about it, but also like, appealing too. I think there's something about that, that drives him.
Aaron 17:05
Yeah, we've... I think we've all -- it's pretty clear in the film that for him this, the gambling is connected also to sexuality. It's like this almost orgasmic experience that, when you there's there's all this build up and as soon as he wins a gambling bet, he immediately wants to have a sexual experience. [Yeah] Because there's a way in which winning and this experience of orgasm and intense relief, like bodily catharsis -- is it's all tangled up for him. They come from there, like both these deep, visceral, primal urges. Gambling has almost become as elemental or primal for him as sexuality.
Evan 17:43
Are there any other key themes we should highlight before we move to one of our categories? [Let's get them categories!] Okay, I think it'll become clear as we dive in. So we thought it would be good to talk about the leechiest scenes in this movie. I think there are a number of scenes that would fit that description. Aaron, do you want to start with one?
Aaron 18:03
Oh, goodness.
Evan 18:05
That really leached into you.
Aaron 18:07
I mean, a scene that was particularly painful and strange for me, was the scene -- was the Passover scene. The scene where the family is together for Passover. And there's so many troubling things happening as this ritual is taking place. You know, Adam Sandler and his wife have talked about that, though, "we have to wait till after Passover to get our divorce." And so you know, there's this impending doom that's kind of over their relationship as they sit at their family Passover table. Then, you know that, that Adam Sandler's brother-in-law, Arno, is one of the loan sharks chasing him down, trying to shake him down for money that's owed, and he's sitting at the Passover table. So it's like all these different crises in Sandler's life have kind of, have infiltrated the ritual. And then as soon as the ritual is over, the family all sits around the TV and starts watching sports, which is what this is all connected to, like Howard's gambling and everything, and it becomes entirely a kind of just irreligious and -- and like disconnected from all the sacredness that just took place. And so there's this really jarring, like sacred and secular or like sacred and profane kind of contrast; this is, so intimately caught up in that scene, it makes me really uncomfortable. And then, as that scene is taking place, the children who are there -- who are caught up in this marital conflict -- one of the one of the sons is becoming obsessed with gambling, with betting on games like his father is -- and the sons are involved in a hunt, this Passover scavenger hunt. And all while the adults are talking and living out their drama, the chase and the hunt is taking place. And for me it's this moment where the hunt that took place with the miners who were looking for the gem is like happening in the Passover household. It's another sense of, sort of like resonances from across the globe, from across different sets of ancestors, rituals, traditions, economies. It's all so tightly condensed in that space. So that scene becomes really leechy for me. Like it just, it sticks with me after the movie. I can't, I can see it in my head, and it won't leave me alone. Oh, and especially, lastly, I'll say, you know, how near the end of that scene -- how Howard takes his wife aside, when she's... What is the dress that she's wearing? [She's wearing her bat mitzvah dress.] Her bat mitzvah dress, this still fits her, still fits her into her middle age. And everyone's commenting on how beautiful and how lovely she is. And Howard, he's kind of broken things off with his mistress, and he thinks, Oh, well, maybe this is my chance to kind of tell her she's pretty and win her back. And it's this terrible, manipulative move that he tries to make. And her rejection of him. That moment, is just so perfect and so cruel. And it's agonizing to watch all of that collected in about a five minute span of time.
Evan 21:35
Yeah, it's a great choice. Yeah. I mean, she says you're, you're the most annoying person I've ever met. Banks, do you have a scene - a leechy scene?
Banks 21:47
Yes, it is one of the -- I think it's one of the culminating scenes of the movie and I think it is the culmination of the leechiness, as well. When Kevin Garnett returns to the shop and meets Adam Sandler in his backroom after Adam Sandler is, you know, completely, you know, beat up -- at his low point in life. And then, in that lowest moment, sort of -- this opportunity is given to him to get out. Kevin Garnett comes to get the stone, to buy it. And in that moment, not only does it, you know, you know, throwing the money out the window to Julia to, you know, try and create a hustle, but also, you know, he's gonna -- Let's do one more, right? He talks about how they've insulted you know, the people of New York right? That they don't understand how we play basketball, right? Doesn't understand, actually, because Kevin Garnett plays for the Philadelphia team right?
Evan 22:48
He plays for the Celtics. [The Celtics, the Boston team.]
Banks 22:53
So yeah, Kevin Garnett plays for the Boston team, and so that he's like trying to make some connection between New York and Boston -- and trying to say that that's why this other game out west is gonna be okay. Like, this absurd thing -- and then Garnett totally buys into it. And so they descend, instead of like finding, you know, the escape route, they go in deeper. And I think for me, that's just -- it's almost a summary of the entire movie right there and I think that that is the leechiest.
Evan 23:21
It's a great choice. I mean, that scene is... and when Howard, you know, KG is kind of -- you could tell he buys the stone and then he has that moment where he's like, You know, what's in it for you man, you know, how much money did you make off this? How many people died for this stone and how much money are you making off it? And then Sandler -- or Ratner -- is just like, KG, you know, you know how it feels to to score all these points and you're up by 40 and you still want to beat him by more -- like this is how I win. And somehow, that sort of connects them. Or at least KG is like, Okay, I see, I see where this guy's coming from. And this gem is now in the possession of KG, he played great last time he had it. And this is where Sandler's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna win big. I'm gonna do another bet, and that's where he gets this idea: he's like, KG has the opal. He has this like this totem right? And now he's -- I know I can make money off this.
Aaron 24:18
It's almost as if he has to prove the power of the totem by making the big bet. But he kind of says -- he tells Garnett how much he's gonna bet on him. You know, we're gonna -- This is gonna be everything. Like, now you have your superpower. Now, you're gonna win. And I'm gonna win too.
Evan 24:37
Yeah, it's uh leechy for sure. So my, mine is, I think a little bit smaller scene -- it's shorter, at least the two big ones that you guys named -- but it's the one where, they're on the way back from the Passover and Howard's son needs to use the bathroom. And so they stop at the apartment that Howard shares with Julia. And there's just a lot of things that are uncomfortable about it. But one is that like, he doesn't want his son to go into this apartment. So he just knocks on some random door in the hallway and the neighbor, like, lets the kid in, they make some references to going number one or number two -- it's loud, there's arguments. There's like, you feel like is this potential child endangerment? What's going on? And then Howard goes into the apartment, it's empty. It's hard to tell what he's feeling. Maybe he misses Julia, but he's still really angry. And then, as he's leaving, you know, his son's there and asks him, "Why is there a woman living in that apartment?" And so now his son is now in on the secret right? Is in on the, the affair. And Howard basically says, you know, shut up, keep this between us. Don't tell your mom -- even though Dinah knows he's planning to leave her. And knows that he's probably -- knows he's been unfaithful. But it's this way in which he has continued to bring his son into his worst secrets, or his worst habits, gambling. You know, this, this unhealthy relationship, this odd living arrangement. That one, that one for me was just so, so uncomfortable. Just seeing what he was doing to his kid.
Aaron 26:21
There's a way in which that he has this opportunity -- because your family is this place where ancestral inheritance gets to be passed on. [Yeah.] You get to pass on the best parts of yourself and the best parts of your history and tradition. But Ratner is, he's kind of doing the opposite. He's passing on what is worst in himself so clearly to his son. And it's, it's incredibly painful.
Banks 26:49
Is that the worst of him, though, or is that just him passing along him? Hmm.
Aaron 26:54
I mean, both. I would, I guess I mean, when I say what's worse than him, I mean, something like: it seems like his addiction to gambling and his infidelity, his unfaithfulness are... like keeping unfaithfulness secret too, like secrecy unfaithfulness, these things... As a father that's just, it's like tragic to think that those qualities would be passed to a child.
Evan 27:25
And some level, he probably can't help but pass on who he is, right? And yet, you -- I think it's the hope is that -- again, it's on the day of the Passover. So it's like, what are we passing on, right? We want to pass on the tradition, we want to pass on, you know, the wisdom of the elders, the wisdom of our religious tradition. And he's maybe done some of that, but he's also passed on these other things, too. And we already see instances of his son embracing some of those habits himself. So maybe that's a good segue into our next category, which is leechiest character. I think Howard's the front runner, but if anybody else wants to throw out another one, by all means!
Aaron 28:05
Well, I think that Howard's business partner, Demany, is a character who is pretty leechy. He's a difficult character to travel with. And he definitely -- he sticks with you a lot because he's so involved in his own kind of hustle. And as he acts as an interface between the Black community and the Jewish community, between KG and Ratner. Yeah, and watching watching him kind of spiral and feel out of control and try and play Ratner and try and play KG and make everything work and then -- I feel so upset -- and then watching the movie -- at Demany, as Ratner is constantly trying to call him and text him and say where's the gem? Where's the gem? Where's the gem? And he keeps getting pushed off and pushed off and pushed off. And it's this weird moment where I'm siding with Ratner, where so often I don't, where I'm like, I'm -- his desperation is contagious. It infects the viewer, and so Demany in a way kind of inflames the leechiness for me. The way in which the difficulty of the movie is so inflamed by the way that he won't communicate with Howard, and the way that their relationship breaks down.
Evan 29:28
Along with that, I mean, I think that Demany is also angry that Ratner is like, unbeknownst to him, giving away his watches, right? Howard is supposed to be the safe place for him to have these expensive watches or pseudo-expensive watches. And Howard is selling those out or putting them on layaway to pay off other debts. Like, he hasn't been a very faithful friend to Demany, either. And yet yeah, you're right. I think in those scenes you do feel for Howard in a strange way. Like, get the gem back! Get the gem back!
Aaron 30:02
I would also make the case that Dinah is a pretty leechy character.
Evan 30:05
Oh no, really?
Aaron 30:07
I mean, when I say a leechy character, Dinah, Howard's wife -- who say, I call her a leechy character because like, watching her like pain and her disgust -- her disgust -- for him that is so persistent throughout the film and only, only intensifies like at the moment where she finds him naked in the trunk of their car after he's been roughed up by some of the loanshark guys... and it's just really unpleasant, really unpleasant. And then to watch her trying on her bat mitzvah dress and to realize, like, she still fits the dress, but all of the childhood innocence that she had when she first wore it is long gone, and she's so bitter, and her life is so unpleasant by this time, that... like that's something that sticks with me as I finish the film. It doesn't let me go.
Evan 31:02
Banks, what are you thinking?
Banks 31:04
I can't...so for me, when I think of this, I think of -- this is a movie that's just like a collection of leeches -- what is a group of leeches called, by the way? Like a murder of crows...is it a slither of leeches? [Yeah, find that out.] I want to know what a group of leeches is. [It's called a cuck of leeches.]
Evan 31:26
No, no, it's not.
Banks 31:28
There's no way it could be called that. What's your source?
Aaron 31:37
It's amazing. It's from a Reddit source.
Evan 31:40
No, no, I was like...
Banks 31:42
No way. Anyway, like, but that's what this is, like -- I don't think that, you know, Howard is more leechy necessarily than a lot of the other characters that we see. But this is such a deep dive into him like, you just -- that's what this is about, almost. It's just about his insatiable hunger, his unstoppable need to keep continuing to gamble and to suck every last bit of money out of every deal so that he can then put that money towards the next one. So for me, this has to be Howard. I'm just gonna go for it.
Evan 32:27
Yeah, I'm not gonna argue that at all. Just to add another leech to the, to the gaggle. I want to throw out the high roller at the casino -- the long haired guy. [Oh, gosh.] He's on the helicopter with Julia. When they get there, he's hitting on her. He's very forward. And you just kind of imagine the worst thing happening. And she eventually has to go hide out in his room to avoid the loansharks and you... I don't know, I was feeling very much like, this is going to be a Me Too moment. This is going to be really bad. Thankfully, that doesn't happen, actually. She helps -- or he helps her get the money and get out of there. But I think regardless, his vibe is very leechy.
Aaron 33:16
So unpleasant. [Okay, so]
Evan 33:19
we've, we've hinted at this a little bit, but we this movie sucked a lot out of us, right? We've talked about it through the different characters in the different scenes. But I do think it's medicinal, perhaps, precisely in those things, or in different ways. So what are some things that are going to stick with you from this movie? That may have some kind of salutary effect?
Aaron 33:43
Yeah, it's interesting, leeches are called -- I just found this online -- leeches are sometimes called "a living pharmacy." Interesting to think of movies in these terms. I've never -- [That is generous.] -- that is generous. I have never thought of a leech in those terms. But if we were to think of this movie as its own kind of pharmacy, in a way, what kind of medicines would it have on offer?
Banks 34:09
I think that, if this was a pharmacy, the drugs you'd be buying there wouldn't exactly be the kind of drugs that you'd want to... the ones you're talking about, you know? I know, like for me, I have a hard time finding... Like the medicinal qualities of this movie are difficult for me to find. I think it is a difficult movie. I think that it sticks with you. But I, I think that, you know, other than being an example of something sad, something that you want to avoid -- sort of a negative inspiration or a thought experiment of the profane -- I think that it's difficult to find, and so I think that this is more of... so for me the leech score's gonna go down a little bit. Because I see the difficulty, but I'm not seeing as much of the medicine.
Aaron 34:59
Yes, certainly, like if you were to look at this as kind of like a cautionary tale, or a moral tale about the dangers of gambling or infidelity or betrayal in families -- I mean, you could read it that way, but I'm not really sure that's what's happening here. I'm not sure this is a cautionary tale. I think the film is maybe a little more interested in this like for its own sake, just like watching in a really unapologetic and unreserved kind of way, undiluted kind of way, how those terrible qualities can play out and create tragedy. Just like watching a human tragedy unfold, it's really difficult, really difficult, because there's something in tragedy that's supposed to be cathartic. Like catharsis and a sense of relief. A resolution is supposed to be there. And there's a way in which, for me, I think about the last -- the way that the film ends -- when I think about its leechiness. And the way the film ends, by kind of entering his body, again, not through a colonoscopy, but through the bullet wound in his face where he's been shot. And just like the mining cavern, the camera kind of goes deep into that wound, again, like woundedness, at the beginning and the end. I think that the film, it's leechiness comes in, in its desire to kind of explore humanity at its most confused, and not necessarily at its most corrupt. But certainly in a way that, that we can recognize as, as so human and, and so painfully tragic. I'm not not sure what else to say. I'm trying to resolve my thought here.
Evan 36:52
Yeah, I think, I mean, the film it -- the film doesn't really resolve in that way. I think it's -- it does. I mean, there's a way in which -- I think I felt at the end, there was a kind of justice done. Like I felt like Howard had done enough to probably like, I don't know, if deserve is the right word, but -- the consequences he had set in motion, were going to come to pass it felt like [He had it coming.] He did. [Yeah.] I felt glad that Julia survived. I felt glad that she sort of made it out. Maybe, maybe. Banks, you were a little skeptical that. You know, the tattoo of Howie on her butt would indicate that maybe... I don't know... maybe she's not gonna make it out
Aaron 37:34
She's stampled by a bad fortune.
Evan 37:42
Yeah. Yeah. Howard really...
Aaron 37:44
Plague follows those with that sign.
Evan 37:47
Yeah, I think, yeah, it did feel like a sort of classic tragedy, right? There's some inherent flaw in the character that leads to their demise. So I think it is a morality play in that sense. And I think it's instructive. And I do think, especially after my second or third time viewing it, I did feel more catharsis than the first time. The first time I was just like -- we haven't really even talked about it, but like the music, the shots, the propulsiveness and the claustrophobia of the film -- make it so it's hard -- Yeah, it just makes it so it's so hard to even, after one time through, articulate: what was this about? Or, what's helpful about this? I do think the second time through, I was able to see, I was able to get past some of those sort of visceral impacts of the film and think through, Okay, yeah, there is, there is a kind of logic here, there is a kind of perspective.
Banks 38:39
But here's the problem though. You're starting to talk about what makes it a leech film is the fact that it's rewatchable. I don't know, man.
Evan 38:47
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe it's not really that leechy.
Aaron 38:50
Well, this is part of the debate. Well, I immediately felt like when I've seen the film, I partly wish that I hadn't. And I quickly, quickly concluded that I did not soon want to see it again.
Evan 39:03
So check check, check. That's a leech movie. [There you go.]
Aaron 39:08
Evan, Evan seems to be the one with a higher tolerance for visits to the pharmacy.
Evan 39:13
It's true. I have seen it three times in a year. [Background joking.] I went on Teladoc. So yeah, that's a great, that's a good segue. Like we want to -- every film that we do on the Leech - we want to rate it, one to four leeches. As I think about it, back to There Will Be Blood, that seems to me to be a four leech movie: highly uncomfortable, salutary for sure; and highly uncomfortable and you don't want to watch it for years. So how many, how many leeches would we give Uncut Gems?
Aaron 39:51
I want to know Banks's thought.
Banks 39:52
I think that I'm going to give Uncut Gems a -- oof -- I'm going to give it -- see I'm debating between two and three leeches on this one -- and I'm gonna give it a two. I think it's a two leech movie. I want to see... I guess I'm still having trouble finding them in the medicine, you know, amongst the drugs, so I'm going to give it two leeches out of four.
Evan 40:21
I'll maybe go on the other end of that. I'll go with three. I think just for the, the way it's constructed and the way it makes you feel as you're watching it, just the tenseness in your body, it's three for me. At least. But I -- especially on the second or third time through it -- I found it so funny. Like I actually found like the scene where Dinah tells him that he's annoying, and that she doesn't - and like he just is so pathetic, and he's like Don't you have a little love for me anywhere in there? And it's just like so obvious that she doesn't and he doesn't deserve it at all...I found that so funny.
Banks 40:59
It was hilarious because, Evan, this was like your third time or second time watching it when we were watching it all together. I think Aaron and I are like zoned in, meanwhile like Evan's in the chat like changing his name, talking about glitzed-out Furbies and we're just unable to focus on the humor at all. So, maybe with additional viewings...
Evan 41:29
And that's like the absurdity of it all is what makes it so funny. Like yeah, like that gold and diamond encrusted Furbies. The film is very funny. And that's where I guess it's medicinal in that it's funny.
Aaron 41:42
It keeps a really straight face though. You know? It's the kind of humor where you can't tell if you're supposed to laugh -- like it takes a while to feel like there's permission to laugh. For me, I agree with the three leech rating because part of this is about what are films that really stick with you. And yet take something out of you. And Banks, it sounds like you're arguing that this takes more out of you than it needs to in some ways.
Banks 42:11
That's what I think, yeah.
Aaron 42:12
And for me, I agree with that, but the reason I add another leech to the pot of leeches is that I think that the performances and the craftsmanship of the film is where I feel like it -- even though it really punished me; I felt like I was really enduring something -- I felt like all of that craftsmanship, the scripting made it kind of like stick with me. And also made me just like stick with the film honestly. Like my leechy feelers were drawn and suctioned to the film itself. I couldn't let go as I was watching, even if I wanted to walk away. And again, because of its deep exploration of like, human flaw, and its like its use of symbolism, its connection to other continents, places, a sense of ancestry, all of this richness -- after I'm done with it. And it's still here chewing on me. I think there's three leeches here chewing on me, not two.
Banks 43:17
So I have to disagree with you on a very important point. And that's leeches do not chew. They are entirely -- they you know are very much a succulent feeding thing, and I believe you said that they sort of latch on -- they don't latch on, right? Not with their feelers, right? They have to use the mouths to do that. So I'm gonna disagree with you on both those points. [It's a great point.]
Aaron 43:39
I've been doing my researches, sir. And leeches are creatures of suction. But creatures also that have jaws, and some leeches -- those jaws do have very small teeth. Just for what it's worth. [Go chew on that, huh?].
Evan 43:55
That's a great thing... But yeah... let's put, let's put a pin in that and we'll come back to that next time. [Oh, yeah.] Where we delve deeper into the anatomy of leeches and -- the proboscis for example. And other...
Aaron 44:11
All debates about leech anatomy will soon be cleared up.
Banks 44:15
Last time I checked, you don't delve deeper into the proboscis; it's the proscobis that devles deeper into you. I don't know.
Evan 44:22
There it is. I think that's the last word. Thanks, Aaron, Banks. It's great to leech with you guys. And we'll see y'all next time on the Leech Podcast.
Banks 44:31
See you again soon.